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#164485 - 01/22/09 08:06 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: enolson484]
oldsoldier Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/25/06
Posts: 742
Loc: MA
I feel for you! Sadly, scouting was originally created to get boys out in the woods, was it not? Slowly, over years, they have taken that away due to the "danger" of it.
How about starting them off slowly? A sort of Q & A class, or classes? What if situations? EASE them into it. Present scenarios, go over options, explain what is good, what is bad.
Perhaps go over "safe" issues such as dehydration, exposure, etc. But, explain it in a kids way: "Who here has been so thirsty their lips have been chapped? How about SO cold your fingertips dont work?" Things of that nature.
Other than that, chalk em up to no-load, ah, well, I wont go any further with that one wink
_________________________
my adventures

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#164489 - 01/22/09 08:17 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: oldsoldier]
enolson484 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/26/08
Posts: 20
Loc: SW Missouri
You're on the mark, Scouting has gone away from its origins. I've read a lot of Baden-Powell's writings, have Scout handbooks from the past, and you can literally see the shift from an outdoor "manly" focus to a more sensitive style of Scouting. While I do agree that a lot of the stuff in the current Scout handbook has validity, I wouldn't mind seeing a shift back to the old Scout traditions of woodsmanship. So much can be learned about life, just by being in the woods. I'm not talking tree-hugger stuff (although, that has its place, too). I'm talking about true bushcraft (survival) skills, that can form the foundation for the rest of a young man's life. I wasn't involved in Scouting when I was young, but I have a Dad that had me in the woods doing all of that "huntin', fishin', trappin', campin' stuff" that served me quite well in situations where my military training was lacking. Just the confidence builders alone are enough to transform a young Scout from being a timid follower to a self-reliant leader. One more thing I've learned, and I can't really pass this on to my Scouts: chicks dig it! Remember, we're talking about teenage boys here. If that's not incentive for a teenage boy to learn survival skills, then I don't know what is!
_________________________
E. N. Olson

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#164492 - 01/22/09 08:22 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: enolson484]
UncleGoo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 390
Loc: CT
Let the kids know that, even if their parents prohibit them from participating in the activities at this time, you will be more than happy to help them with the skills when they're older--the usefulness of these skills does not end with childhood.
You're already making a big impression on the kids, and if you plant the seed, they'll come back.
_________________________
Improvise,
Utilize,
Realize.

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#164493 - 01/22/09 08:23 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: enolson484]
Desperado Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 1530
Loc: DFW, Texas
Well, maybe it will work out. Too bad you can't drop the parents from a blackhawk into the boonies in the middle of the night. Give them three days to learn their lesson, and then come back after them.
_________________________
I do the things that I must, and really regret, are unfortunately necessary.

RIP OBG

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#164494 - 01/22/09 08:25 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: Desperado]
TeacherRO Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/11/05
Posts: 2574
any reason you can't have the over-night right next to the main camp?
No need to be miles away

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#164503 - 01/22/09 08:42 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: oldsoldier]
KenK Offline
"Be Prepared"
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 2208
Loc: NE Wisconsin
A few questions ...

What are the parents doing there? Boy Scouts is a boy thing - not a boy AND PARENT thing. The only parents who should be there are the adult leaders.

Will the Scouts have full access to water? Having to filter water for consumption is fine. Have you considered whether the water could have non-filterable chemical nasties? Drinking nasties for survival is one thing, but drinking them during practice is another.

Will the Scouts have access to food? Having an 11 or 12 year old boy go 48 hours without food is REAL survival. I don't think that would be appropriate for a BSA activity. If you provide light foood, that is OK. Its done at the OA ordeal.


Will the Scouts be dressed sufficiently to keep warm, given the skills they've been taught? You want to avoid exposure issues.

Will the Scouts be monitored? Will those who are having problems get some help/guidance in using their skills to survive? You simply can't allow those who are struggling to risk illness due to lack of the basic essentials (shelter, water, food, ...).

Will they maintain the 'buddy system'? That's important!

The whole fixed blade knife thing is silly. That should all be something agreed upon with the Scoutmaster and the Troop Committee - assuming the Council doesn't have more restrictive rules (these would apply). Even then, the Troop Committee should really be involved unless pulled in due to complaints. In that case they should be involved.

I don't really see that you're doing anything wrong or unusual. The skills you list a great Boy Scout outdoor skills.

If your presentation style is overly aggressive, or overly colorful, or ... well ... anti-government/anti-society (thinking Ruby Ridge here) ... that could very well not be received well by parents and would not be appropriate for Scouts. Keep things positive.

Stay away from camo gear and don't get too military - not that military is bad, but Scouting works hard not look like a military organization, regardless of its roots.

Per some of previous posts, you can't add to or subtract from requirements for BSA membership, earning merit badges, or rank advancement. That's just BSA policy so every boy is treated equally and fairly in Scouting. That's a good thing.

Thanks for what you're doing. The best part of Scouting is the Scouts. All too often the worst part of Scouting is the parents. Stick to the BSA program and keep the Scouts safe.

Ken

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#164504 - 01/22/09 08:45 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: TeacherRO]
enolson484 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/26/08
Posts: 20
Loc: SW Missouri
Therein lies the rub: the "good" parents that go to the meetings and go on the outings will be participating in the classes, hands on, and the exercise, as well as manning the safety camp. The "bad" parents will drop their Scouts off at the meeting point before we head out to the woods and will be there to pick them up. But, I have yet to see them out in the boonies or at meetings, except for those meetings where the Troop Committee is talking about new policies. Coincidentally, their Scouts are the ones that have the toughest time on the hikes, the outings, get home sick, etc. But, I guess that's just the nature of the beast. That's why we have people that will survive in a bad situation, and those that will roll over and die in an equally bad situation.
I know a couple of parents that think I'm a "survivalist" and can't see the difference between a "survivalist" and someone who's prepared and, most important, wants his family prepared. This will sound corny as hell, but I practice and preach survival out of love for my family. I will do anything and everything to protect them and keep them safe. That includes survival kits in our vehicles, PSKs, training in the fundamentals, firearms training, etc. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I don't think little green men are going to invade, and the chances of a meteor hitting my house are pretty remote. However, we've experienced our share of tornadoes, floods, and one really nasty ice storm. Not to mention the number of car wrecks we've come across where our 1st aid skills came in handy. I'm blessed with a wife that loves the outdoors, backpacking, and camping. Should could do without the firearms, but she knows how to shoot and, most important, hit what she aims at. She can start a fire faster with flint and steel than I can, and she catches more fish than I do. You'd think she was a backwoods country girl. Nope, she's got a Masters in communications and is a speech pathologist for autistic children. She also runs marathons for fun. My point being, in all of that rambling, is that we not only have high individual confidence in our preparedness, but we have high family confidence as well. And, in the end, that's what I think is so lacking in some of my Scouts. Parents that just don't care. That's just a small part of a much bigger issue, however.
_________________________
E. N. Olson

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#164506 - 01/22/09 08:51 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: KenK]
enolson484 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/26/08
Posts: 20
Loc: SW Missouri
Originally Posted By: KenK
A few questions ...

What are the parents doing there? Boy Scouts is a boy thing - not a boy AND PARENT thing. The only parents who should be there are the adult leaders.We encourage our parents to attend, as that's a near guarantee their Scout will attend. Plus, it's that many more adult eyes for safety.

Will the Scouts have full access to water? Having to filter water for consumption is fine. Have you considered whether the water could have non-filterable chemical nasties? Drinking nasties for survival is one thing, but drinking them during practice is another.Water will be filtered, plus jerrycans at the base camp.

Will the Scouts have access to food? Having an 11 or 12 year old boy go 48 hours without food is REAL survival. I don't think that would be appropriate for a BSA activity. If you provide light foood, that is OK. Its done at the OA ordeal.They'll have some food. Not a lot, but enough to take the edge off.


Will the Scouts be dressed sufficiently to keep warm, given the skills they've been taught? You want to avoid exposure issues.yes

Will the Scouts be monitored? Will those who are having problems get some help/guidance in using their skills to survive? You simply can't allow those who are struggling to risk illness due to lack of the basic essentials (shelter, water, food, ...).Yes. Safety is paramount, hence additional adults.

Will they maintain the 'buddy system'? That's important!Buddy system is mandatory for Scouts

The whole fixed blade knife thing is silly. That should all be something agreed upon with the Scoutmaster and the Troop Committee - assuming the Council doesn't have more restrictive rules (these would apply). Even then, the Troop Committee should really be involved unless pulled in due to complaints. In that case they should be involved.

I don't really see that you're doing anything wrong or unusual. The skills you list a great Boy Scout outdoor skills.

If your presentation style is overly aggressive, or overly colorful, or ... well ... anti-government/anti-society (thinking Ruby Ridge here) ... that could very well not be received well by parents and would not be appropriate for Scouts. Keep things positive.

Stay away from camo gear and don't get too military - not that military is bad, but Scouting works hard not look like a military organization, regardless of its roots.

Per some of previous posts, you can't add to or subtract from requirements for BSA membership, earning merit badges, or rank advancement. That's just BSA policy so every boy is treated equally and fairly in Scouting. That's a good thing.

Thanks for what you're doing. The best part of Scouting is the Scouts. All too often the worst part of Scouting is the parents. Stick to the BSA program and keep the Scouts safe.

Ken
_________________________
E. N. Olson

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#164523 - 01/22/09 10:20 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: ]
KenK Offline
"Be Prepared"
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 2208
Loc: NE Wisconsin
Not to take this off-topic, but as nice as it is to have parents there, if they aren't BSA trained they often simply don't understand the program and get in the way in more ways than one. They need to leave the Scouts to run the troop and be on their collective own when on outings.

In general, my advice to troop leaders to to ONLY allow parents to attend IF they have a troop role (ASM?) and are BSA trained.

If parents do attend, they certainly need to camp and stay AWAY from the Scouts with the other adult leaders. Let the PLC (patrol leaders) run the troop and the troop's activities (except, of course, for the applicable instructors like yourself).

Good luck to you! I'd love to be a Scout in our course & event. Sounds great!!!

Oh, and many MANY thanks for your service!

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#164525 - 01/22/09 10:40 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: ]
KenK Offline
"Be Prepared"
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 2208
Loc: NE Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: IzzyJG99
I give the B.S.A. another twenty to thirty years before it is a hollowed out shell of it's former self ruled over by "safety."


Trying not to hijack this thread too much ...

Do keep in mind that the Boy Scout program - as defined by the Boy Scouts of America - is VERY much an boy run, outdoor-based program. Its an adult-guided club for boys that is run BY the boys. They should be outdoors every month - exploring and learning the very skills that we talk about on this forum plus important life skills such as planning, leadership, getting along with other people, helping other people, creating menus, buying food, packing food, selecting/buying gear, making sure the right gear comes along, cooking, cleaning, .... all important stuff.

Do keep in mind that the outdoorsmanship is not the GOAL of Scouting - it is one of the the METHODS. The real goal of Scouting is to help boys (and girls 14-18) develop character, citizenship, and personal fitness. The hidden secret of Scouting is that those lofty goals are achieved through the outdoor activities - a real slick trick that works great.

In my view the safety rules demanded by the BSA make sense. Here's and example: Rule: (paraphrased) no non-swimmers in a canoe without a trained lifeguard. At first glance that seems excessive, but if a boy does end up in the water - fairly likely for a canoe with boys - the BSA wants to make sure the other person in the canoe KNOWS how to deal with that non-swimmer. We want the boys to come back in one piece.

I simply can't think of a "Guide to Safe Scouting" rule that is obsurdly over-protective.

The boys in my son's troop come back from camp dirty, stinky, tired, and happy. What more could we ask for?

Ken K.

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