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#164452 - 01/22/09 06:46 PM TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL
enolson484 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/26/08
Posts: 20
Loc: SW Missouri
I've been lurking for a while and finally came up with a topic to post. My background: Retired Marine, Infantry, 22 years, Scout-Sniper, Joint Forces Special Ops, graduate of Jungle Environment Survival Training, Mountain Survival Training, and Desert Survival Training. I practice my skills consistently and stay up-to-date on the latest tips and techniques, reading, etc. I also teach fundamental survival skills when I'm not stuck behind a desk and a computer. I'm also an Assistant Scoutmaster for a Boy Scout Troop.

Situation: preparing to teach 20-30 plus Scouts, ages 11-17,
fundamental survival skills, plus their parents. The socio-economic dynamic of the Troop is one of very few "outdoors-y" or middle to lower class Scouts or families. Predominately upper middle class to upper class (whatever those phrases really mean) families, college educated, not-used-to-getting-dirty-in-need-of-a-reality-check types.

I've already run into several low grade conflicts with certain parents/individuals about some of the things I've taught the Scouts in the past. Simple things: use of a sheath knife (BSA policy is that use of sheath knives is discouraged, not outright banned, just discouraged), snares and traps, etc.

I was asked by the Scoutmaster, who knows my background and experience, to develop and teach a Wilderness Survival package over the next several months. There will be several classroom lectures with visual aids covering survival fundamentals, first aid, orienteering, shelter building, fire making, survival kits, etc., all focused on the basics to keep one alive during the 72-96 hour SAR window, so there will be no eating grubs, etc. There will be several practical application settings so the Scouts can get dirty and get a little experience in a controlled environment. This will culminate in a survival exercise where we take the Scouts out for a "day hike" that, unknown to them, turns into a 48-hour survival exercise. Safety will be stressed, with qualified parents (a couple of EMTs, etc.) manning a base camp a couple of miles away, with redundant two-way comms.

Well, already I'm running into resistance by some of the more touchy-feely parents about the classes as well as the exercise. Comments like "the lectures are too graphic" or "it sounds too dangerous, we shouldn't be teaching this to our Scouts" or, my favorite, "my boy won't be carrying a knife, of any sort, because he might cut himself." Mind you, I've also gotten a lot of acceptance and encouragement from a lot of the parents, and they want to participate in all of the instruction and the exercise.

I want to assure everyone on the forum that my lectures aren't graphic, I know I'm not teaching Marines or SEALs, but Scouts, so I've toned down my more, shall I say, enthusiastic parts, but the message is still the same and the lessons will still be taught and, hopefully, learned.

I started this post with a question in mind, but have now forgotten it. I guess I'm experiencing a bit of frustration with the recalcitrance of some of the parents in letting their Scouts learn that the world is not a nice place and that they will be better prepared (Scout motto: Be Prepared!) to face many of life's obstacles, not just survival situations, with the skills they could learn.

Any suggestions?
_________________________
E. N. Olson

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#164455 - 01/22/09 06:56 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: enolson484]
Mike_H Offline
Addict

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 612
Loc: SE PA
First of all, welcome.

I'm also an ASM for a scout troop and I've learned that you have to tread a fine line to not overstep established scouting guidelines.

The sheath knife is definitely one of those areas you must tread lightly. They don't outright ban it, but they are HIGHLY discouraged. Even then, it is adult use only typically.

Those parents that do not want their kids to participate in this sort of activity have every right to keep their kids out of it. A loss for them however.

With your planned scenario, you must make sure that the adults are carrying adequate equipment to supplement anything a scout might forget. You obviously do not want to put any scout in a life threatening position. If they are simply uncomfortable because they forgot to pack a comfort item, well, that is there problem.

I actually am doing a survival lecture with our troop tomorrow at camp with another ASM. I'm very interested in hearing more about your plans.

Mike
_________________________
"I reject your reality and substitute my own..." - Adam Savage / Mythbusters

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#164456 - 01/22/09 06:56 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: enolson484]
paramedicpete Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1920
Loc: Frederick, Maryland
Great to have you here.

I will be presenting this course next month to Girl Scouts:

For Girl Scout Teens
Teens in the Timber Workshop #1 - Outdoor Survival
Would you know what to do in an outdoor emergency? If you're not sure, now's the time to find out! Come learn the 10 essentials you should have in your outdoor survival kit, and what to do in different emergency situations. This is the first workshop in the Teens in the Timber series, all designed to prepare teen troops to participate in the first ever Teens in the Timber outdoor skills competition.

GS Survival Program

I would be happy to share any materials (PowerPoint) I develop and experiences I have with the girls.

Pete

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#164459 - 01/22/09 07:07 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: enolson484]
Desperado Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 1530
Loc: DFW, Texas
Welcome,

Once the really important basics are out of the way (first aid, etc.), please teach them REALLY good land-nav skills. Just like you and I were taught over and over again. Once they have that down, then let them see a GPS.

More than once I have been tromping thru the woods looking for scouts that had a map and compass, but not a clue about how to use it. I know the classroom part is as boring as watching paint dry, but it is really important.

I am sure in 22 years, you have plenty of memories of brand new butter bars lost. Just remember them when fighting to keep the scouts awake.

Good Luck.
_________________________
I do the things that I must, and really regret, are unfortunately necessary.

RIP OBG

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#164462 - 01/22/09 07:12 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: paramedicpete]
enolson484 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/26/08
Posts: 20
Loc: SW Missouri
I'll clarify the knife use subject... in our Troop we only allow folders up to 3" blades and sheath knives up to 4" blades. For those not familiar with Scouting, before a Scout can carry a knife, he has to earn a Totin' Chip, which is instruction designed to teach a new Scout the proper and safe use/maintenance of knives and hatchets. Only when they can demonstrate mastery of the fundamentals are they awarded a Totin' Chip, which is card that basically says they've completed the training and are authorized to carry a knife when and where appropriate. Ironically, hatchet use isn't discouraged. Hmmm... In my Troop, any violations of safety, such as horseplay, "Stretch", throwing knives into trees, etc, are handled with an on the spot correction and one corner of their Totin' Chip card gets cut off. All four corners get cut, they lose their Chip and knife privilege, and have to go through the class all over again, at the Scoutmaster's convenience (so it could take a while). If they lose their card two times, they lose the privilege, period. That really ticks off parents who think their Scouts are special and deserve special treatment, not like those, and I quote: "others".
Our base camp is where all external supplies will be based: surplus water (just in case), advanced 1st aid supplies, extra 52g trashbags, and other survival items. We'll let the Scouts on the exercise suffer enough to get the point, but not enough to endanger anyone. Safety is stressed and is paramount. We will be balancing that with not wanting our Scouts to feel that they have an "out" and don't need to bring their basic PSKs.
My course is titled "Survival 101." I want my Scouts to know the time-tested fundamentals, and I'm not going to address wilderness living skills. Basics work, that's why they became the basics.


Edited by enolson484 (01/22/09 07:18 PM)
_________________________
E. N. Olson

Top
#164466 - 01/22/09 07:17 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: Desperado]
enolson484 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/26/08
Posts: 20
Loc: SW Missouri
Oh, I will, I will. GPS aren't allowed. My orienteering classes will cover two sessions: Map and Compass, then Orienteering, followed by a day and night land navigation course. Everything purple dinosaur style. I've already procurred surplus, out-of-date maps that were headed for the landfill from the local reserve unit, a few UTM protractors, and 90% of the Scouts have compasses already. I haven't forgotten about the boot looeys, there's still one wandering around Camp Swampy in North Carolina somewhere!
_________________________
E. N. Olson

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#164468 - 01/22/09 07:19 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: enolson484]
Mike_H Offline
Addict

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 612
Loc: SE PA
Really sounds good.
_________________________
"I reject your reality and substitute my own..." - Adam Savage / Mythbusters

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#164473 - 01/22/09 07:28 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: enolson484]
Leigh_Ratcliffe Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 1355
Loc: United Kingdom.
Originally Posted By: enolson484
I've been lurking for a while and finally came up with a topic to post. My background: Retired Marine, Infantry, 22 years, Scout-Sniper, Joint Forces Special Ops, graduate of Jungle Environment Survival Training, Mountain Survival Training, and Desert Survival Training. I practice my skills consistently and stay up-to-date on the latest tips and techniques, reading, etc. I also teach fundamental survival skills when I'm not stuck behind a desk and a computer. I'm also an Assistant Scoutmaster for a Boy Scout Troop.

Situation: preparing to teach 20-30 plus Scouts, ages 11-17,
fundamental survival skills, plus their parents. The socio-economic dynamic of the Troop is one of very few "outdoors-y" or middle to lower class Scouts or families. Predominately upper middle class to upper class (whatever those phrases really mean) families, college educated, not-used-to-getting-dirty-in-need-of-a-reality-check types.

I've already run into several low grade conflicts with certain parents/individuals about some of the things I've taught the Scouts in the past. Simple things: use of a sheath knife (BSA policy is that use of sheath knives is discouraged, not outright banned, just discouraged), snares and traps, etc.

I was asked by the Scoutmaster, who knows my background and experience, to develop and teach a Wilderness Survival package over the next several months. There will be several classroom lectures with visual aids covering survival fundamentals, first aid, orienteering, shelter building, fire making, survival kits, etc., all focused on the basics to keep one alive during the 72-96 hour SAR window, so there will be no eating grubs, etc. There will be several practical application settings so the Scouts can get dirty and get a little experience in a controlled environment. This will culminate in a survival exercise where we take the Scouts out for a "day hike" that, unknown to them, turns into a 48-hour survival exercise. Safety will be stressed, with qualified parents (a couple of EMTs, etc.) manning a base camp a couple of miles away, with redundant two-way comms.

Well, already I'm running into resistance by some of the more touchy-feely parents about the classes as well as the exercise. Comments like "the lectures are too graphic" or "it sounds too dangerous, we shouldn't be teaching this to our Scouts" or, my favorite, "my boy won't be carrying a knife, of any sort, because he might cut himself." Mind you, I've also gotten a lot of acceptance and encouragement from a lot of the parents, and they want to participate in all of the instruction and the exercise.

I want to assure everyone on the forum that my lectures aren't graphic, I know I'm not teaching Marines or SEALs, but Scouts, so I've toned down my more, shall I say, enthusiastic parts, but the message is still the same and the lessons will still be taught and, hopefully, learned.

I started this post with a question in mind, but have now forgotten it. I guess I'm experiencing a bit of frustration with the recalcitrance of some of the parents in letting their Scouts learn that the world is not a nice place and that they will be better prepared (Scout motto: Be Prepared!) to face many of life's obstacles, not just survival situations, with the skills they could learn.

Any suggestions?


It's called denial. Quick way to get killed. smile

Methinks that some of these parents don't want you as an example to their children. We don't want them to learn about honour, courage, self reliance, keeping one's word and the faith, do we?

One wonders if some of these parents are capable of compehending that there is no difference between a sheath knife and a kitchen knife? They can only be handled safely by people who are taught properly. The younger (within reason) the better.

Make passing the survival/first aid course a requirement for remaining/advancing in the troop. If you can.

If not: try making it a requirement for participation in any of the active activities. After all the scout might have to render aid to a fellow member.

Part of me, the nasty part is considering various (perfectly legitimate) ways to encourage the touchy feely parent to take themselves and their offspring someplace else. The rest of me is saying that wouldn't be fair on the kids.
_________________________
I don't do dumb & helpless.

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#164475 - 01/22/09 07:33 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: Leigh_Ratcliffe]
Mike_H Offline
Addict

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 612
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: Leigh_Ratcliffe

Make passing the survival/first aid course a requirement for remaining/advancing in the troop. If you can.

If not: try making it a requirement for participation in any of the active activities. After all the scout might have to render aid to a fellow member.

Part of me, the nasty part is considering various (perfectly legitimate) ways to encourage the touchy feely parent to take themselves and their offspring someplace else. The rest of me is saying that wouldn't be fair on the kids.


You can't go against national with things like this.
_________________________
"I reject your reality and substitute my own..." - Adam Savage / Mythbusters

Top
#164477 - 01/22/09 07:44 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: Leigh_Ratcliffe]
enolson484 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/26/08
Posts: 20
Loc: SW Missouri
Well, I retired on Jan 1, so I'm slowly learning a bit more about diplomacy, but the PC part is not taking, for some reason. The First Aid instruction will be continuous throughout the instruction, with a lot of what, in the Corps, used to be called "Cherry Pickers." A cherry picker is a 1st aid scenario thrown at students, at random, whenever and wherever, just like they'd happen in real life. The students then have to treat the victim, with little supervision, and are critiqued at the end of each drill.
I throw survival cherry pickers at my Scout's frequently, just to make them stop and at least think. I find it interesting how the younger ones are usually the ones to step up into a leadership roll and take on the challenge.
I think the reluctant parents react the way they do out of ignorance, denial, or thinking that some one or some agency will be there to bail them out. People just don't learn from history, it seems (Katrina, etc.). Additionally, this same group of parents are the ones that are least involved with their Scouts, just drop them off for meetings and outings and return to pick them up, but try to set policy for the Troop when they don't even know what's going on! I've converted a few, and now they're among the most enthusiastic parents we've got, to the point where I've had to pull one or two aside and pull the reins in a bit. But, I'd much rather have to do that instead of having to deal with the "I can't do this, I can't do that" crowd.
They just can't get the fact that survival skills translate into life skills that will help their boys be more responsible and productive citizens in the long run. Of course, that's kind of the point of Scouting in the first place...
_________________________
E. N. Olson

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