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#164625 - 01/23/09 01:02 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: Blast]
enolson484 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/26/08
Posts: 20
Loc: SW Missouri
Originally Posted By: Blast
Be_Pepared, I love your reasonings with over-protective parents. With your permission I'd like to write it up as a post on my blog.


By all means, do so. I thank everyone for their comments and suggestions. To clarify, I do follow BSA National policy, the Guide to Safe Scouting, etc. to the letter. I learned a long time ago in the Corps, that if you just do what's in black and white, you won't get into trouble, even if it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The survival exercise isn't intended to be a "nuts and berries" weekend. It will be the final exercise which will bring together all of the classroom time and one-day hands-on training into one package, where the Scouts can actually use what they've learned and figure out what does and doesn't work for them. You know how it goes: I suck at starting a fire with true flint and steel. I can get a fire going in a heartbeat with a metal match (firesteel). As far as knives, I'm going to use a previous suggestion of comparing a sheath knife (one of my Moras) to a steak knife. This weekend I'm going to fab a duct tape sheath for a steak knife. During my "The Cutting Edge" presentation, I'm going to present it to the Scouts and parents. It'll be interesting to see the naysayers reaction when I tell them it's a common steak knife that they let their sons use 2-3 times a week, with no complaints.
Most of the parents that go on the outings are trained, and hold various adult leader positions in the troop. There is, however, a lack of outdoor experience amongst them. One Dad told me, and I completely understand and respect him for this, that because he grew up in a big city, attending Scouts with his son was his opportunity to learn things he never had a chance to learn. Now he and his son have something in common and their relationship, where once strained, has grown substantially closer. I can't complain about that.
Everything taught during Survival 101 will be tied in to the various applicable merit badges, so that will be additional incentive for the Scouts. I've also taken it upon myself to purchase a few rewards for the Scouts that do the best at, say, shelter building, or are the fastest at getting a fire going, etc. as even more incentive. A couple of Moras and a Camelbak daypack. We'll see how the Moras go over. If not I'll think of something else.
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E. N. Olson

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#164629 - 01/23/09 01:23 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: enolson484]
Mike_H Offline
Addict

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 612
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: enolson484
Most of the parents that go on the outings are trained, and hold various adult leader positions in the troop. There is, however, a lack of outdoor experience amongst them.


Interesting to hear that the many of the parents that are ASM are trained, but lack outdoor skills. Outdoor skill training is one of the most important training sessions for the leaders. Sounds like something is lacking there! Unless, of course, you are referring to the fact that they weren't raised respecting the outdoors.

I definitely like your ideas for this program. I wish the scouts would officially include more of a survival type merit bad, but the Wilderness badge does tie in nicely.

I wish you luck with this. Keep everyone safe and they will learn an valuable lesson.
_________________________
"I reject your reality and substitute my own..." - Adam Savage / Mythbusters

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#164630 - 01/23/09 01:24 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: KenK]
Mike_H Offline
Addict

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 612
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: KenK

Trying not to hijack this thread too much ...

Do keep in mind that the Boy Scout program - as defined by the Boy Scouts of America - is VERY much an boy run, outdoor-based program. Its an adult-guided club for boys that is run BY the boys. They should be outdoors every month - exploring and learning the very skills that we talk about on this forum plus important life skills such as planning, leadership, getting along with other people, helping other people, creating menus, buying food, packing food, selecting/buying gear, making sure the right gear comes along, cooking, cleaning, .... all important stuff.

Do keep in mind that the outdoorsmanship is not the GOAL of Scouting - it is one of the the METHODS. The real goal of Scouting is to help boys (and girls 14-18) develop character, citizenship, and personal fitness. The hidden secret of Scouting is that those lofty goals are achieved through the outdoor activities - a real slick trick that works great.

In my view the safety rules demanded by the BSA make sense. Here's and example: Rule: (paraphrased) no non-swimmers in a canoe without a trained lifeguard. At first glance that seems excessive, but if a boy does end up in the water - fairly likely for a canoe with boys - the BSA wants to make sure the other person in the canoe KNOWS how to deal with that non-swimmer. We want the boys to come back in one piece.

I simply can't think of a "Guide to Safe Scouting" rule that is obsurdly over-protective.

The boys in my son's troop come back from camp dirty, stinky, tired, and happy. What more could we ask for?

Ken K.


+10 on all of this!
_________________________
"I reject your reality and substitute my own..." - Adam Savage / Mythbusters

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#164633 - 01/23/09 01:35 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: enolson484]
oldsoldier Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/25/06
Posts: 742
Loc: MA
Hey, here is an idea; why dont you offer a course for the parents, separately? Kind of give them an idea of what you want to go over, sort of as a training class. This way, you can work out the kinks, AND present it in a non-threatening manner, to the ones who have issues with their kids being in harms way (or their perception of harm). Introduce them to the basic tenets of survival, and that it is NOT anti-governement, or anything like that; it is, simply put, being prepared for the unprepared night out (in this case). After all, one would hope that, when little johnny fails to come home from a walk in the woods one night, that he is found the next morning safe in a warm shelter, none the worse for wear. Beats the alternative...
One thing I REALLY liked about my military survival instruction was using the word SURVIVAL as an acronym. You may have to alter some of them a little, as it is military oriented, but, in the end, it can be worked (not sure if you guys used FM 21-76 or not in the corps):
Size up your situation
Undue haste makes waste
Remember where you are
Vanquish fear & panic
Improvise
Value life!
Act like the natives
Learn basic skills

With the exception of acting like the natives, I think that you could touch each subject in a positive manner, and really help people to understand the lessons you are trying to teach.
One last thing; someone else here mentioned setting up a camp, and doing this off to the side, close to camp, within shouting distance. I think that this may be a better idea, as it may be more friendly to those who are opposed to the idea. Your idea of doing the "unplanned" night out is excellent; maybe left to those students who want to learn more, like a sort of advanced course? Just a thought.
Of course, you can always put the parents through the capture/interrogation phase of the survival course wink
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#164639 - 01/23/09 02:21 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: ]
airballrad Offline
Gear Junkie
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 248
Loc: Gulf Coast Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: BigDaddyTX
I think the closest we got to the woods when I was in the scouts was there were some trees behind the building where we had the pine car derby. I never really got it. Of course, it was probably that our particular group was crap, I don't know, but we never did anything outdoors. Sorry to take it OT, but that was probably 15 years ago, so it's been that way for a while.

If you were doing a Pinewood Derby, it was Cub Scouts. They don't generally do much outdoor stuff until the boys hit Weblos, or bridge over to Boy Scouts. I, too, endured a few years of arts and crafts before I got out of the blue uniform and started doing the fun stuff. grin

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#164640 - 01/23/09 02:27 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: Mike_H]
enolson484 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/26/08
Posts: 20
Loc: SW Missouri
Originally Posted By: Mike_H
Originally Posted By: enolson484
Most of the parents that go on the outings are trained, and hold various adult leader positions in the troop. There is, however, a lack of outdoor experience amongst them.


Interesting to hear that the many of the parents that are ASM are trained, but lack outdoor skills. Outdoor skill training is one of the most important training sessions for the leaders. Sounds like something is lacking there! Unless, of course, you are referring to the fact that they weren't raised respecting the outdoors.


I should've phrased that better. You are correct: they've been trained, but don't have an outdoor background. So, all they know is what they've learned in OLST and ASW. Which is fine, but it does grate on my nerves a little when they begin to question some of the things I do, based off of my experience.
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E. N. Olson

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#164641 - 01/23/09 02:31 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: oldsoldier]
enolson484 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/26/08
Posts: 20
Loc: SW Missouri
Originally Posted By: oldsoldier
Of course, you can always put the parents through the capture/interrogation phase of the survival course wink


I like this idea. SERE school was one of the crappiest courses I ever went through and have no desire to repeat, much less go through for real. But, it was and is one of the most rewarding experiences I've ever had.
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E. N. Olson

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#164642 - 01/23/09 02:35 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: enolson484]
airballrad Offline
Gear Junkie
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 248
Loc: Gulf Coast Florida, USA
Thanks for your Service, thanks for putting this program together for the boys, and thanks for putting up with the... obstinate... parents. You've been through the adult leader training, so you know the rules they establish. It waters things down a bit, but you should still be able to do most of what you're planning.
We also had parents behaving this way when I was a Scout (think 15-20 years ago). Then as now, they were typically the ones that never participated, and were only seen when they dropped their kids off or picked them up. Unless they heard about something they didn't like; then they showed up to committee meetings with clipboard in hand, taking notes and raising Cain. Well and good; their right as parents. As has been mentioned, the trick is winning them over. It can be done with most, although the stress of it drove my dad out as SM after 3 years.
For many of these boys, this truly is an opportunity to learn and do things they will never otherwise be exposed to. Even my dad, who had hunted and fished before he had kids, never took us outdoors until I had been in the Scouts for a few years and he was guilted into being a Leader. grin
I will also weigh in on throwing the Wilderness Survival Merit Badge into the program, if you've not already. (It was my favorite; can't you tell?)
If general survival (as opposed to outdoors) is of interest, don't forget Emergency Preparedness MB too.
Finally, I feel the pain of all that have posted about overprotective parents. We had a kid in our troop whose mom became a leader just to baby him. She cleaned up his tent at summer camp and did his laundry for him. There are just too many parents who for whatever reason don't want their children to be exposed to any real danger. That is understandable, but not practical. The real world is dangerous. As they will all learn eventually.
Best of luck and best wishes...

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#164648 - 01/23/09 03:16 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: MDinana]
KenK Offline
"Be Prepared"
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 2208
Loc: NE Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: MDinana
Make it a "wilderness survival" Merit Badge weekend ...

If you're doing First Aid, make it part of the FA or Safety merit badges. All 3 of these, BTW, are on the Trail To Eagle, which should make most of the parents and scouts happy.


Great ideas!!

Do keep in mind that merit badges need to be earned through registered merit badge counselors. If you want to become a merit badge counselor for any of those badges - and have sufficient subject knowledge/experience - you'll need to first register through your local Boy Scout Council office. Its an easy straight-forward thing - just filling out two forms (one to register you as a BSA leader, and another to sign up as a merit badge counselor).

Oh, and if you haven't already taken it, do take the Youth Protection training that is available on-line here: http://olc.scouting.org/info/ypt.html

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#164660 - 01/23/09 03:57 PM Re: TEACHING SCOUTS ABOUT SURVIVAL [Re: KenK]
Mike_H Offline
Addict

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 612
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: KenK
Great ideas!!

Do keep in mind that merit badges need to be earned through registered merit badge counselors. If you want to become a merit badge counselor for any of those badges - and have sufficient subject knowledge/experience - you'll need to first register through your local Boy Scout Council office. Its an easy straight-forward thing - just filling out two forms (one to register you as a BSA leader, and another to sign up as a merit badge counselor).

Oh, and if you haven't already taken it, do take the Youth Protection training that is available on-line here: http://olc.scouting.org/info/ypt.html


Talk about super easy becoming a merit bade counselor. Given his background, I'm sure he should have no problem with the Wilderness one.

Damn, now I want to go on that weekend with the kids!

+infinity on the Youth Protection. Probably the most important aspect of it all. It is all for the kids and keeping them safe, including giving them the tools for staying safe.
_________________________
"I reject your reality and substitute my own..." - Adam Savage / Mythbusters

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