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#163898 - 01/19/09 10:34 PM Re: Editorial About Charging For Rescue [Re: Andrew_S]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
I've posted my opinions on this forum about this topic so much now I don't want to clutter up the server with anymore of it, but here goes anyways.

The bottom line is I really don't like the notion of paying for other people's stupidity. Anything that would limit my liability for the worthless actions of others is a good thing. If a person dies in the wilderness for lack of good sense, I don't reckon that concerns me any, but preventing that at any cost, I take issue. Putting other people in harm's way to save these idiots, I take issue. Don't go in the big woods or out on the big water if you can't afford self extraction. If that means paying an insurance premium or subscribing to a service ahead of time, however expensive that may be, then it is far better than making me foot the bill. That'd be like finishing a meal at a restaurant and then expecting me to pay for it just because I am the next one to sit at the same table after you left.

There's lots of things I'd like to do in life, except for the fact that I can't afford it, and I don't think anyone else should have to pay for my trip to South Africa to go shoot a water buffalo or some such. How hard a concept is that to grasp? If an idiot is going to compound his trouble by refusing rescue, then let him sign the disclaimer and he can be on his merry way, and we will dig him out of the snow and mud in the springtime, provided his loved ones will foot the bill for his recovery.

Yes, I have little sympathy for the ignorant and the foolish in such matters, call me practical, or an ass, or whatever, but I prefer my money be spent on more important things, like taking care of my own family. I also feel that being in a community means being a responsible member of that community, and going on an adventure ill-prepared or otherwise taking unnecessary risks that put the welfare of the whole in jeopardy should disqualify one from being a member any longer, and exonerate the rest from having to bail their dumb hide out.

_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#163904 - 01/19/09 11:07 PM Re: Editorial About Charging For Rescue [Re: benjammin]
scafool Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 1534
Loc: Muskoka
Funny, that is the same way I feel about auto insurance.

If you are crazy enough to be on a highway you deserve whatever you get, after all, we all know how dangerous it is to be on a highway.
Why should I be forced to support the insurance industry if I am a safe driver and accidents only happen to others?
_________________________
May set off to explore without any sense of direction or how to return.

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#163908 - 01/19/09 11:57 PM Re: Editorial About Charging For Rescue [Re: Andrew_S]
bsmith Offline
day hiker
Addict

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 584
Loc: ventura county, ca
andrew_s:

thank you for that.

i didn't miss it - it isn't / wasn't there on the state of new hampshire, fish and game department, outdoor recreation sub-heading, safe hiking sub-sub heading, under 'there and back' is the link to exactly what i copied and pasted.

sorry, not my fault the state doesn't have up-to-date info on their website.

i have no clue as to who or what agency extracts people in new hampshire. in reading this law i would - foolishly - assume if fish and game is not involved then you wouldn't be charged.

in my county, sar is volunteer in conjunction with the county sheriffs department.

in other california areas the coast guard or military may supply the choppers.

and again, thanks for the update.
_________________________
“Everyone should have a horse. It is a great way to store meat without refrigeration. Just don’t ever get on one.”
- ponder's dad

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#163909 - 01/19/09 11:57 PM Re: Editorial About Charging For Rescue [Re: benjammin]
bsmith Offline
day hiker
Addict

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 584
Loc: ventura county, ca
amen, ben!

again, if you are willing to pay a tow truck to extract your vehicle because you are unable to extract it yourself, what's wrong with paying someone to extract you if you are unable to extract yourself and at the same time you are putting other's lives and resources in jeopardy negligently?

may be oversimplifying, but i think the analogy fits.

no one seems to complain about ambulance fees when one is injured, and yet it is so much cheaper to sign the ambulance's "against medical advice" paper and take a taxi to the e.r. - under the right circumstances, of course.

and as for education - i just did a quick visit to several camping / hiking / outdoors vendors - and they each had links to 'ten essentials' or other sites that would aid the beginner. the education is there. you only have to take advantage of it.

negligently.

depends on what the meaning of the word "is", is. wink
_________________________
“Everyone should have a horse. It is a great way to store meat without refrigeration. Just don’t ever get on one.”
- ponder's dad

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#163910 - 01/20/09 12:19 AM Re: Editorial About Charging For Rescue [Re: bsmith]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1084
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Sound like we end up with the IRS of search and rescue. A bureaucrat gets to decide if a SAR victim is negligent or not,
gets to bill them, charge interest if they can't pay on time,
then the poor ones get thrown in debtors prison.

Great, I'd like to be part of that.


Edited by clearwater (01/20/09 12:59 AM)

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#164063 - 01/21/09 02:04 AM Re: Editorial About Charging For Rescue [Re: clearwater]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
simply put, if you can't pay, don't play. Hiking in the big woods is a privilege, just like hunting, or fishing, or driving a car. People have to pay extra to do some of these things because there's a risk and a liability involved, ergo, a duty owed. The tort behind driving without a license is negligence, which is as it ought to be for hunting, fishing, or other similar activities.

Look, I don't like all the extra rules and regulations anymore than the next guy. But the fact is we live in a society now dominated by litigation and regulation, and thanks to the new administration, it is likely only to get worse. It must be fair for all, or else it is discriminatory, and I have a problem with that, especially when I am on the receiving end.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#164239 - 01/21/09 07:48 PM Re: Editorial About Charging For Rescue [Re: benjammin]
JohnE Offline
Addict

Registered: 06/10/08
Posts: 601
Loc: Southern Cal
I always thought that hiking/walking on public lands was a right...given that they're owned by the people and all. When the day comes that walking is considered a privilege, I'm outta here.

JohnE
_________________________
JohnE

"and all the lousy little poets
comin round
tryin' to sound like Charlie Manson"

The Future/Leonard Cohen


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#164247 - 01/21/09 08:40 PM Re: Editorial About Charging For Rescue [Re: benjammin]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1084
Loc: Channeled Scablands
As it stands where I volunteer, the rescued and the volunteers more than cover the costs of SAR, in fact spend additional tens of thousands of
dollars and hundreds of hours of time in education of the public
as well. Safety videos on avalanche, grade school and high school survival trainings etc.

Many people have a sense of giving back.
Most victims donate what they can afford, in fact the whole SAR
organization here was started by and is rife with people who
have been aided or had family that has been helped. I doubt many
of them would be volunteering if they had been handed a bill
at the end of their rescue.

Most searchers I know don't want people charged except in the most
reckless cases say involving criminal activities.

Things are working well now. Why would you want to replace that
with more governmental crap?




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#164306 - 01/22/09 02:21 AM Re: Editorial About Charging For Rescue [Re: clearwater]
bsmith Offline
day hiker
Addict

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 584
Loc: ventura county, ca
Originally Posted By: clearwater
As it stands where I volunteer, the rescued and the volunteers more than cover the costs of SAR..

i really do sincerely appreciate the time you spend volunteering to rescue the unfortunate.

the question i have is : who pays for the chopper? nevada county or the military or a private entity that has an arrangement with the county?

i think this thread suggests that the cost of the extraction - except for those who freely volunteer their time - should be borne by the rescuee if - and a big IF - found negligent in their actions.

the cost to run a chopper and its crew is quite substantial, and with tax revenue shrinking due to decreased property values and subsequent decrease in property tax values, that cost must be evaluated in the harsh light of reality.

fee for service - it is becoming a way of life here.
_________________________
“Everyone should have a horse. It is a great way to store meat without refrigeration. Just don’t ever get on one.”
- ponder's dad

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#164322 - 01/22/09 03:55 AM Re: Editorial About Charging For Rescue [Re: bsmith]
scafool Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 1534
Loc: Muskoka
BSmith, do you mean just like the SAR in New Hampshire?

Something about the health services.

In early 2003 Sudden Acute Respiratory Syndrome appeared. in Asia. It spread around the world very rapidly
It spread so rapidly because it traveled with infected and contagious airline passengers.
People died of it in Canada. The World Health Organization was quarantining airports and considering quarantining countries.
We had Hospitals in Toronto closed to the public because of it.

The effect it had on the Airlines and on Tourism was amazing.
Major conferences were being canceled, people were not flying to their vacation destinations.

Sudden Acute Respiratory Syndrome had very large economic impacts everywhere.
Asia, North America, Australia, Europe, and almost anywhere else you might fly to.

Sudden Acute Respiratory Syndrome was the closest thing to a modern plague we have ever seen.
People forgot about it, and you can find only a few references to it, but we only escaped having a world wide epidemic worse than the 1918 Influenza epidemics by pure dumb luck.

Before the Sudden Acute Respiratory Syndrome outbreak we had nothing from our Conservative Govt about health care except the cost and that they needed to have user fees and privatization.
After Sudden Acute Respiratory Syndrome Health care in Canada suddenly got a lot more funding everywhere except Alberta.
In USA the Centers for Disease Control suddenly received new and larger budgets.

In the USA you have private insurance plans that are very profitable.
They will not stop their propaganda campaigns to privatize all services.
Not even if 25% of Americans came down with the next modern version of the plague.

Now just try to wrap your head around the idea that chronically underfunding Medical Services has nothing to do with morality or justice.
The abuses you keep hearing about are largely myths and the few abuses that do happen are far less than 1%.

What it does have to do with is Business and the same corporate leaders who crashed your banking system trying to get their hands deeper into your pockets.
They don't care if you live or die. They only care if you pay.

If you are not sitting on the board of a major service corporation then every time you yell that other people should pay for services you are begging the corporate board members to steal your wallet too.

This is real economics.
EDIT:
And the same economics apply your Search and Rescue in case you didn't get it the first time around!

(Not your ideologically justified Free Market Fluff.)


Edited by scafool (01/22/09 06:13 AM)
_________________________
May set off to explore without any sense of direction or how to return.

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