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#163560 - 01/17/09 02:44 PM Re: Editorial About Charging For Rescue [Re: clearwater]
Be_Prepared Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/07/04
Posts: 530
Loc: Massachusetts
It's been a long time since I was active helping out SAR activities in the Whites, (mostly as a college kid volunteer being summoned from my cot at an AMC hut in the middle of the night cry). Back then, I think we all felt like we needed to be more self sufficient, and didn't really expect a quick evac or rescue if we messed up. We tended to travel in groups of at least 4 back then, none of this solo or pair stuff. Always felt like with 4, when one went down, one could stay with them, and the other 2 could hike out for help if we couldn't handle things ourself. Those were the only choices, no cell phones, sat phones, PLB's back then. Only technology we could usually count on were the trailhead sign-in sheets. If someone saw that you hadn't signed out, and there was a car in the trailhead lot, well, eventually someone might start lookign. We certainly have a lot of folks out on the mountains today that just assume they can make a call, and the cavalry will save them, quickly.

I still hike up there often, but, not as much in winter. The Avalanche Center reports are still always interesting to me. We were considering heading up for skiing this weekend, so I had glanced at the notes from one of the USFS Snow Rangers for this weekend, they are looking forward to the high temperature getting up to -15F, balmy! Fun, and interesting reading, especially love the part about your eyeballs freezing to the back of your eyelids...

-----[extract from Mt Washington Avalanche Center]
This weekend Americans will be celebrating the life of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. throughout the country including here in the ravines. Our planned events include the annual polar bear plunge in the Cutler River and a dunk tank with your favorite caretakers. Unfortunately it looks like the brutal weather will keep the number of both participants and spectators to a minimum.

Truthfully, the weather has been absolutely brutal and most folks have decided to stay at home by the woodstove rather than freeze their brain on the Rockpile. Today I saw only two people on the mountain who weren't paid to be there. They looked like a well-prepared couple who were skinning up for a cold and squeaky run down the Sherbie. Even for the best prepared the weather is still pretty harrowing. When Jeff and I stood below Huntington today scanning the gullies with binoculars I felt all the signs of the arctic cold. The wind cut through my 17 layers of wool and synthetics to bite at my skin. A headache set in that made me feel like I had just tried to eat the famed Holy Cow Sundae in record-breaking time. When my eyes started to tear from the stinging cold, my eyelashes froze together. Good times I tell you.

The arctic air that is punishing us will hold tight through the first part of the holiday weekend and summit temps are supposed to climb to a whopping -15F tomorrow. By Sunday the mercury should break into the positive numbers as the cold Canadian air moves out of the region and we begin to be affected by the onshore flow of maritime air. This air will be far warmer and moister than what we've been dealing with and snow is forecasted for Sunday afternoon. Right now we're too far out to make predictions on snowfall but we'll keep our fingers crossed for a decent helping of snow enhanced by upslope energy and Winnipesaukee effect moisture.

With the cold air that has become firmly established in our region you need to be well-prepared if you're going to visit the mountains in the upcoming days. One gear malfunction can put you in a serious predicament so come prepared with the right stuff and the right mindset. Puffy jackets and fleece-lined shell pants are great pieces of equipment but don't neglect the rest of your body. Windproof hats and big warm mittens are two keys to happiness. Boots may be the most vital piece of equipment you'll don so don't take any shortcuts. Today was the first day of the season when I made the shift away from my leathers and into the plastics complete with supergaiters. I tend to run much warmer than the average humanoid and the majority of folks have made the switch to their plastic double boots much sooner. Lastly, don't forget your goggles. If you want any chance of poking your head above treeline you're going to need to keep your eyeballs from freezing to the back of your eyelids. If you think I'm kidding, just ask the person who I saw jogging with a pair of ski goggles on this morning in Gorham.

Wear the right gear, bring extra stuff in your pack and don't hesitate to call it quits when the time is right. The mountain doesn't care if this is your only three-day weekend during the winter season. Come on out and take in the beauty of hills but give due respect to their potential wrath. Be grateful for your ability to recreate and in the words of Dr. King "...let freedom ring from the prodigious hilltops of New Hampshire."
----
_________________________

- Ron

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#163567 - 01/17/09 03:59 PM Re: Editorial About Charging For Rescue [Re: clearwater]
bsmith Offline
day hiker
Addict

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 589
Loc: ventura county, ca
Originally Posted By: clearwater
I'll say it again, when people are fearful they will be charged
for a search, it makes it harder for the searchers. The victim
will try extra hard to find their way out and in the process increase
the search area. Some even hide from searchers, hoping if they find
their way, they will plead they were not in need of assistance.


i wonder if any of the sar members out there ever had a rescuee tell them 'i'm sorry you found me.' grin
_________________________
“Everyone should have a horse. It is a great way to store meat without refrigeration. Just don’t ever get on one.”
- ponder's dad

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#163571 - 01/17/09 04:27 PM Re: Editorial About Charging For Rescue [Re: clearwater]
ccl442 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 7
I feel I need to chime in on this one.
I am a member of an active SAR/USAR team in Vermont. We are one of the prime responders for the state. When it comes to the Winderness SAR realm, charging people for rescues is long overdue. Im not advocating charging everyone, just the negligent or the ill prepared. Just about every person that we get called to "rescue" is ill prepared, not in physical shape, poor equipment or no equipment, does not know the terrain, etc. Maybe if the possiblity of getting charged for a rescue was there it would cause these people to take more personal responsibility. My generation has a serious lack of personal responsibility. The whole "Its not my fault, its theirs."
The cost that goes into one of these rescues is astounding. Most of these teams are volunteer but that doesnt mean that there are not costs. Every team still has to carry insurance, cost of fuel, team gear, vehicles, etc etc. Our team can be called to any corner of the state and has been. Also, these events can be of long durations, causing team members to miss work, family events and there is always the threat of injury to a team member. I understand both sides of this topic. However, for me the theory that if there is a charge people will not call does not fly. That arguement was used prior to ambulance servies billing for transports.

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#163574 - 01/17/09 04:46 PM Re: Editorial About Charging For Rescue [Re: bsmith]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1181
Loc: Channeled Scablands
The very last search I went on, the victim kept hiking, in
the dark,
despite telling him over the phone to stay put till we got
there. He was worried he would be billed and that bills would
increase the longer he was lost.

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#163577 - 01/17/09 04:56 PM Re: Editorial About Charging For Rescue [Re: clearwater]
scafool Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 1534
Loc: Muskoka
Originally Posted By: clearwater
I'll say it again, when people are fearful they will be charged
for a search, it makes it harder for the searchers. The victim
will try extra hard to find their way out and in the process increase
the search area. Some even hide from searchers, hoping if they find
their way, they will plead they were not in need of assistance.


That is one of the biggest problems when looking for small children, isn't it?
They have been taught not to speak to strangers and often are afraid they will be in trouble for getting lost so they hide from the searchers.
_________________________
May set off to explore without any sense of direction or how to return.

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#163578 - 01/17/09 05:00 PM Re: Editorial About Charging For Rescue [Re: clearwater]
bsmith Offline
day hiker
Addict

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 589
Loc: ventura county, ca
Originally Posted By: clearwater
The very last search I went on, the victim kept hiking, in the dark, despite telling him over the phone to stay put till we got there.

oh, he had a phone? how did sar get the call? from him? concerned relative? why did he / she / relative / friend call?

injury? lost? unprepared for the dark?

more details might help me understand this.

people seem to forget that a walk in the woods is not the same as a walk around the backyard.
_________________________
“Everyone should have a horse. It is a great way to store meat without refrigeration. Just don’t ever get on one.”
- ponder's dad

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#163580 - 01/17/09 05:07 PM Re: Editorial About Charging For Rescue [Re: ccl442]
bsmith Offline
day hiker
Addict

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 589
Loc: ventura county, ca
Originally Posted By: ccl442
Im not advocating charging everyone, just the negligent or the ill prepared. Just about every person that we get called to "rescue" is ill prepared, not in physical shape, poor equipment or no equipment, does not know the terrain, etc. Maybe if the possiblity of getting charged for a rescue was there it would cause these people to take more personal responsibility.

take responsibility themselves and their actions. they should bite the bullet and spend a night cold, in the dark. i'm sure the next time they'd go out much better prepared.

to clarify, an injury, illness, allergic reaction, etc. - no problem.

unprepared / irresponsible - for whatever reason - bill 'em.
_________________________
“Everyone should have a horse. It is a great way to store meat without refrigeration. Just don’t ever get on one.”
- ponder's dad

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#163584 - 01/17/09 05:18 PM Re: Editorial About Charging For Rescue [Re: bsmith]
bsmith Offline
day hiker
Addict

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 589
Loc: ventura county, ca
a quick net search found this - basically an ad - extolling the virtues of the microfix plb.

it cost the rescuee $270.00 - for a deputy sheriff's overtime.

the navy's helicopter / experience and sar personnel were free.

i suppose he'd gladly pay the money vs. try and rappel and then walk out on a broken leg.

my 2 cents.
_________________________
“Everyone should have a horse. It is a great way to store meat without refrigeration. Just don’t ever get on one.”
- ponder's dad

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#163585 - 01/17/09 05:19 PM Re: Editorial About Charging For Rescue [Re: ccl442]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1181
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Originally Posted By: ccl442
Also, these events can be of long durations, causing team members to miss work, family events and there is always the threat of injury to a team member. I understand both sides of this topic. However, for me the theory that if there is a charge people will not call does not fly. That arguement was used prior to ambulance servies billing for transports.


Increasing the number of people charged for rescue can make
the search LONGER and more expensive, if folks are hiking trying to find their own way out. Someone walks 10 miles
and can increase the search area by 30 square miles.

People DO put off calling for help and try to figure it out
themselves, usually until darkness or weather increases the
hazards of the search. They may even call off rescues too early
as happened here.

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2008/10/experienced_hiker_marathoner_d.html

Her friends called off the search the night before even tho
they weren't with the missing lady. Searchers on the scene the
next morning when the 3 re-called for help,
reported the 3 other hikers as being seemly worried about liability and very hesitant to talk with rescuers.

As far as ambulance rides go, how many times is transport
refused by the victim after the ambulance arrives? Who
pays then? Should we demand payment by the accident victim
who refuses the ambulance ride? In the backcountry can the
victim refuse help if they have lost communication? Shouldn't
they be able to refuse service too?







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#163586 - 01/17/09 05:23 PM Re: Editorial About Charging For Rescue [Re: clearwater]
Dagny Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1918
Loc: Washington, DC
Tough call. I've never needed an ambulance or fire truck but it never occurred to me that those who have should be charged for it -- even when they are in need because of their own negligence.


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