The ice and snow combined with poor driving and there was a 51 vehicle pile up on the interstate in southern NH this morning:

http://www.wmur.com/news/18456864/detail.html

I was watching the video on local stations, and more than one person talked about being able to stop their car, only to have it get rammed from behind. One person was interviewed and said that he jumped from his car before it was hit from behind and driven under a bus.

Another interesting observation was how many of these folks were not dressed for the below freezing, snowy conditions. People commented on how lucky they were that they could borrow things from the other vehicles. They were out driving in a snow storm with little more than a cotton hoodie as their outerwear. No boots, jacket, hat, gloves, etc... and apparently, they don't carry anything in the trunk that wasn't put there by the manufacturer. Ok, we've covered that one to death before I guess.

My main issue is: I have a young driver in my house, and I have always wondered why the driver training classes don't incorporate any training on ice/snow/rain conditions? They go out of their way to NOT take the kids out for driving when conditions are poor. A few of us have taken advantage of large open parking lots during snow and ice conditions to get the kids real exposure to skidding, recovering from a skid, how ABS works and feels, etc. I'm afraid that most kids don't get this kind of training. It's a lot better to spin out on an open parking lot a few times, and see how hard it is to turn, and brake on ice, isn't it? Do other folks do this with their kids? (Heck, it's good for adults too)

What kind of defensive driving "practice" have you folks had? How much was learning the hard way, vs any formal or planned training?

Running boats was some of my best training for driving. It taught me that managing momentum and not fighting it made life much easier. Incorporate that with the idea that the brake pedal really does not exist when things are slippery, and you get much better at driving in bad conditions. Unfortunately, when cars have to stop to avoid an accident in front of it, it does not have many options for getting out of the way of the drivers behind their cars.

With snow and ice, I had at least one hard lesson. I went down an ice-covered road when I was 17, my car spun and I was stuck jsut off the road, with little damage. Then, another car came in the other direction and smashed into the right rear quarter of my car (really my parents car). This other car backed up and drive off. My car had a huge dent at the back of the passenger door and front of the quarter panel. The passenger door never opened again. Of course, when I explaned to my parents that some other car didi all the damage, I was not really believed. Luckily, the other car showed up te next day, and it had been driven by someone I knew who was 1 year older than I was.

I was taught to drive young.
I was taught on country roads, gravel pits and frozen ice.
Yes, I agree young drivers should have at least one day on the skid patch.
Even knowing how a car spins out and how to correct I still have been surprised by ice.

Growing up in Minnesota, my dad would take us out on frozen lakes and have us put the car into skids then recover. And if we didn't recover we got to practice how to get the car unstuck using shovels, kitty litter, and peices of carpet.

-Blast

Blast..i got my "ice time" in up on lake Bemidji when i went to
college up there...not having winter gear in your car is just a result of all the good cars we have these days.in my 60 Chevy i had a full trunk of winter camping gear.the other day i made a cross town drive in my seldom used Plymouth that i haul my canoe around with in the summer.at below zero i just had a car coat and ball cap..about halfway home with the heater just starting to warm up i thought--if this old beater stalls out i'm cold toast--even with a cell it would take an hour for a tow.yes,changes will be made.but our SUV warms fast and never misses a beat--so why worry about getting cold??..ya--i know..

I didn't know that there were that many people driving in New Hampshire at the same time...

JohnE

I managed to gain some great experience from a couple smash bang's as a young driver... my dad's car, my gram's car... just was looking for ideas to help my son avoid the same typical teen driver learning curve. I'll have him out in storms this winter, and will get him into some open lots with ice/snow.

"Good judgement comes from experience, which often comes from bad judgement" (I've heard quote that attributed to various folks over the years, but, whoever said it knew a thing or two!)

Don't depend on someone else to teach your kids anything except music and art.

Some parents don't bother teaching their kids at all, then they get all in a snit when it ends up costing them money.

Sue

My dad had some training at FLETC, and when it was time for me to learn, he taught me a lot of stuff, but he never told me everything. When I mentioned that I think kids should take advanced driving like skid control, taking corners at high speed, and really learning how to control the car, he said he purposefully didn't. He was afraid I'd go out an drive the car to the maximum and kill myself or someone else.

I agree a little bit, but, I really think driver's licenses should be more skill based. You should have to complete an aggressive course that includes accident avoidance, "kid coming between parked car into road" wake-up call ( "kid" jumps out and at 35 you don't have enough time to stop ), high-speed braking, skid recovery, slalom, rapid lane change, placing your vehicle in a spot with just 6 inches space on each side, proper left lane use and etiquette, teaching how your single actions affect those around you, and how to increase traffic flow efficiency with small changes.

i think "kids" should drive 5MPH under the limit and be off the streets by dark..adults should get free skid pad,ect training in return for their license fees...but winter driving is a killer.

I was fortunate as a young lad that my father and grandfather saw the need to teach me the fundamental skills of vehicle operation in all types of weather conditions. I had the oppurtunity to experience driving several types of vehicles on unopened stretches of state and interstate highway. Early in my career in public safety, we were required to take Emergency Vehicle Operators Course,which included two full days of practical driving training in sedans, vans, and truck ambulances. I have since taken the Heavy Vehicle EVOC which deals with apparatus with a GVWR greater than 15K, including engines, ladders, and heavy rescues. That training has served me well through the years in addition to a lot of real world experience. In central NC we don't get a great deal of snow, mostly sleet and freezing rain. I'll take snow any day over ice.
It never ceases to amaze me how unprepared drivers are, especially in winter months and when inclimate weather is forecast. It seems that most folks are oblivious to the dangers of hypothermia, or are they just that apathetic?
I don't just carry a "survival Kit", I drive one. Having said that, I'm never totally satisified with the gear I carry. Always room for improvement, I guess.

The problem with drivers (particular in winter) is that everyone thinks they are Mario Andretti and all drivers out there are inferior compared to them...no matter what and blaming other / younger drivers etc.

When I was a firefighter and we were dispatched out to an MVA, we heard every excuse, reasons...real or imagined that people came up with instead of just saying "maybe it really was my fault..."

Enough said....

How many of you have seen people pass the plow trucks, or a sander? Never seems like a good idea to me. Duh... Darwin awards waiting to happen...

You're right though, we all think we're blessed with better skills than we really are. You need a healthy respect for what can happen.

My dad taugh me to drive at an early age, on dirt first, with some deep mud mixed in, later on pavement. Many of the things he taught me have stuck for life. Then the CHP Academy, with skid pan and high speed track. Then almost 31 years of driving fast in traffic, I never had a crash that was my fault. But todays kids seem to be taught how to put on makeup or text their buds while driving, with the sterio blasing away. Job security for the highway cops...

One of the first things to learn is simple: When conditions suck don't drive.

I'm all for optimism but IMHO there aren't that many vitally important reasons for me to fight my way through any serious storms. Before I leave I look at eh weather forecasts and if I have to stay put for another day or two so be it.

Second: Pack to stay an extra day or two where you are. This makes it easier to observe the first rule. If I know I have everything I need to stay put I'm less likely to feel forced to take risks. Having an extra change of clothing, any necessary medications and other supplies to camp in the truck if need be, is a good start in having emergency supplies on board.

Third: Have appropriate types and amounts of supplies for surviving in, or walking out from, the vehicle. This also helps with ...

Fourth: If things go south while your on the road pull off. But do it carefully and in a defensive manner. When things are really bad try to get off the road just after an underpass and back up to the other side of the rail. The idea is to put something substantial enough to deflect a loaded semi between you and your vehicle and traffic. Cement barriers, strong guard rails and underpass embankments are all good. Near an underpass has the advantage of doubling the chances of being found by rescuers. Get off the road before you run out of options. Before your forced off.

Having extra supplies in the vehicle makes pulling off feel more reasonable so there is less temptation to try to drive through when the odds are against you.

Look into some rally driving techniques. For slick and loose surfaces, these techniques work the best.

1. Left foot braking-faster reactions and more steering control, it can be hard on the brakes but is worth it for the control it gives you
2. Understand where the center of gravity of your vehicle is; know how to change it for greater traction
3. Get onto some ice and practice, get a feel for how it feels when the car begins to lose traction and throw the vehicle into some wild spins just to lose the fear of it

Do you live in New Hampshire? There is a good school up there which runs affordable weekend ice and snow driving training in your own car: Team O'Neil Rally School.

http://www.teamoneil.com/

Autoweek magazine http://autoweek.com has over the past few years run a series of articles on the poor state of young driver education in the US. They have also held several national conferences in an effort to change the way teen drivers are taught and licensed. They argue that the status quo is killing our children.

In particular they address ki4buc's father's argument that teaching skid control and advanced driving skills encourages fast, reckless driving. They report statistics that show that teens given advanced driving skills have fewer accidents and are less likely to die in an automobile.

There are plenty of places to take your teens to develop advanced skills. I've made sure all the young drivers in my family get this training.

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060904/FREE/60825007/1008/FREE

My local school dristrict no longer offer Driver Education courses

There seem to be several people assuming that other drivers are capable of thinking ahead. The results tend to disprove that. There are always some who don't comprehend the situation.


On the other hand, considering how little actual training, experience and examination of skills for driving is required compared to say, flying a light airplane, it's a wonder we aren't all dead.

To the parents who can't be bothered to teach their kids to drive safely I say - it isn't "we" who are killing kids. It is their parents doing it by omission.

I learned to drive at the same time I was learning to fly. Both taken very seriously and thoroughly by my father. Practice stalls in the airplane - practice skids in the snow in the car. Same idea - learn the limits of your control in a safe environ so you can stay away from the limits when you want to.

No crashes in 36 years and well over a half-million miles of driving (so far). Includes this morning's crashfest in Colorado.

"...Left foot braking..."

Depends. I grew up left foot braking a vehicle with an auto transmission, I find that it increases my "reaction" time, and I can brake smoother. Drive the EVOC instructors nuts tho, for this simple reason. If, in a panic stop situation, you hit the brakes with the left foot and the gas with the right, you lose the vacuum assist to the brakes, and you don't stop. I have always suspected that has something to do with those folks who are always driving thru the front wall of some business. If you are going to be a left foot braker, you have to do it ALL the time, and somehow train yourself to lift the right foot when pushing the left...

It's interesting, well to me anyway, that rather than improving or demanding higher driving ability standards, we instead, demanded and got safer cars. That of course, leads to even worse drivers as people feel safe in engaging in even worse driving practices, ie, cell phones, makeup application, texting, eating, doing paperwork, reading, performing light surgery, etc. One could make a very reasonable argument that for all the wrong reasons, Lee Iacocca was right about making air bags mandatory.

What's that old saying about getting what we deserve?


JohnE

I'm a left foot clutcher

AMEN!

Been there, done that too...

There are many reasons most kids can't drive worth a darn. For one, a lack of open land and back roads - most kids grow up in the city or burbs ... no where to really learn. My dad gave me a car when I was 14 (all I had to do was get it running - took me nearly six months but I sure learned a lot about cars). My extended family had land and a bunch of teenagers with junkers to race around a dirt/mud track every weekend.

I invested in my son's safety with a very good local driving school (first day they did timed slalom runs) and some relevant experience I gave him. He is now 18 and drives a 5 ton plow/salt truck all night in Cleveland for decent money. I asked him how he got the job over older people with experience and he said the owner of the company told him the other applicants couldn't handle the truck.

To me, learning to swim, cook, shoot, drive, and the like (in the real world) are life skills that should be mandatory. Oh, wait ... they're all pretty dangerous. Insurance ... liability ... what am I thinking??? Nevermind.

Remarkably, they still get to learn all of those except drive in Boy Scout camp, although the do gooders are trying to get us to eliminate the rifles, shotguns, and archery range every year. (Some scouts do learn to drive in the camp pickup, depending on whether they are the ask permission first or ask for forgiveness later types... )

I learned to drive manual in a truck at a Scout camp. It was a great learning experience. I learned to ease into the gas and off the clutch, I learned what gravel does to an auto paint job, and the guy behind me learned not to pull up too close to an 18-year-old learning to drive a stick in a gravel lot.

Like everything else, it's because nothing is our own fault or responsibility anymore. All accidents are because of a shortcoming in the equipment, procedures, etc.

There's a little car I would love to own but getting one imported is a royal pain because it isn't available with air bags. The powers that be will happily let me run out and purchase a motorcycle but heaven forbid I be allowed something as reckless as a car without air bags.

</rant>

"we instead, demanded and got safer cars"

Actually we got more 'safety' features wich don't necessarially make safer cars. I've seen a lot of so called safe cars in accidents that were minor yet the passenger compartment was damaged and people hurt because solid frames were replaced with features such as air bags.

Some studies i have seen written up show that people tend to drive more carelessly in vehicles they think are safer. They pull out into situations they wouldn't when they were driving a car with fewer safety features.

In essence people are subconsciously comfortable with a certain level of risk. As cars get safer people subconsciously begin to drive more carelessly to maintain the same relative level of perceived risk.

It isn't a one-for-one trade off. Safer cars remain marginally safer even with people intuitively balancing their relative risk. But there is a definite buffering of safety gains as people correct by driving like there were bulletproof. Increase the relative safety by 10% and you only see perhaps a 3% gain.

Alone these lines I'm dubious about what sort of gains left-foot braking gets you. I will give you good odds that if you think you can react faster that you probably following closer. Even when you think your not. Such is the way of the human mind.

Also I have profound doubts as to what the extra fraction of a second of earlier braking, assuming you get any real benefit after you subconsciously normalize for perceived risk, gets you. If another tenth of a second makes or brakes your ability to avoid an accident I think your following too close and cutting your margins too fine.

IMHO split-second timing has a place on a racetrack but, humans being humans, most people on the highway, including myself much of the time, are not tuned in and tuned up enough to reliably work with that precision. Highway driving is mostly long hours of bone numbing boredom. Interspersed randomly with very short periods of life threatening danger. It is the transitions from routine to desperate that gets you.

Driving on the highway I try for a steady two to three second following distance. On the highway I try to deal in complete seconds. Doing that the fractions of a second take care of themselves.