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#155617 - 11/18/08 03:40 PM Re: Survival gun redundancy [Re: benjammin]
comms Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/23/08
Posts: 1502
Loc: Mesa, AZ
I agree with ammo on the .22LR. I was at a store the other day and found a box of 500 hollow point rounds for $19.00. Man I was sorely tempted but instead I purchased 100 rounds of higher quality stuff at $8.00 because I knew I wouldn't have any feed issues.

I think in all things there is a decision that must be made between size/weight/cost and durability.
_________________________
Don't just survive. Thrive.

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#155620 - 11/18/08 03:54 PM Re: Survival gun redundancy [Re: comms]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
Junk ammo is even bad for revolvers. My old K-22 has recessed chambers, junk ammo will crud up those recesses to the point I can not force a new round far enough into the chamber to close the cylinder. Easy to remove, but a pain nonetheless...
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OBG

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#155628 - 11/18/08 04:58 PM Re: Survival gun redundancy [Re: OldBaldGuy]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4018
Loc: Anchorage AK
Yep, the SA Ruger is a bit more tolerant than the DA Smith I reckon. Fewer parts to deal with on the SA cylinder, whereas you have the ejector system on the K-22 plus the cylinder in the Ruger doesn't swing out. The cylinder to frame gap at the back end of the SA away from battery is also a bit wider on the Ruger, allowing for the cylinder rotation to compress the cartridge into the chamber at battery when the hammer gets pulled back. The hammer pull becomes increasingly stiffer, but has to be better than trying to force the cylinder back into the frame with a bunch of slightly protruding cartridges. I suspect eventually the Ruger would jam up with wax and gunk as well if I kept going with that junk ammo. But for a while it would do it's job where the others would have to be tore down and reamed out. I believe the junk ammo was a couple cheap bricks of PMC LRN 40 grain standard vel. The bullets themselves are wax lube coated, and as the chamber heats up, that wax is going to come off and deposit itself inside, and at the worst place too.

Most 22 lr ammo isn't that expensive that you couldn't go with something better than the bottom of the barrel stuff. Use good jacketed ammo from a mainstream mfr, and practice marksmanship rather than spraying and you will enjoy it more in the long run I reckon.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#155680 - 11/19/08 06:24 AM Re: Survival gun redundancy [Re: benjammin]
Jakam
Unregistered


In the spirit of the original post, I have a 410/45lc (H&R Survivor) with removable choke, a 410/22lr (M6 Scout), and a 45lc single action revolver (Beretta Stampede) as my basic bug out armament. My wife has a 22lr single six as hers and likes to carry the M6 because it's "cute". Plus the scoped 22 helps her in hitting the target more consistently.

So redundancy in ammo for all. And picked to be as simple as possible for maintenance and repair.

I replaced the original H&R stock with the ATI stock,foreend and heatshield and it gives it an AR15 look from a distance, with your eyes squinted and slight astigmatism thrown in. Plus the adjustable stock allows my wife to use it comfortably.

All varmint/snake/small critter guns, all single shot (except if you're really fast with the M6, but accuracy would suffer, and it does enough without any extra help).

Ammo runs the gamut, from snake shot to cowboy loads to high velocity, shot big samples of each, and accuracy varies as noted by others, but I weeded out the rounds that were way off and now stick with the tried and true....

Benjammin, I think you hit the mark (pun intended), marksmanship is key, rather than volume.


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#155717 - 11/19/08 06:56 PM Re: Survival gun redundancy [Re: comms]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2184
Loc: Deep south... Carolina
Originally Posted By: comms
I agree with ammo on the .22LR. I was at a store the other day and found a box of 500 hollow point rounds for $19.00. Man I was sorely tempted but instead I purchased 100 rounds of higher quality stuff at $8.00 because I knew I wouldn't have any feed issues.

I think in all things there is a decision that must be made between size/weight/cost and durability.

I've used the bricks of copper-jacketed Remington ammo (from walmart) in my 10/22 with no real problems. Any misfires/FTE's were using the off-brand magazines.

I also have a few brands of the "high velocity" .22 ammo. Does anyone know if there are any problems firing these types through a regular 10/22? I have read that it's not the best idea to shoot hi-vel rounds through firearms not designed for them.

Thanks!

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#155724 - 11/19/08 10:15 PM Re: Survival gun redundancy [Re: MDinana]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4018
Loc: Anchorage AK
High velocity rounds aren't exactly the issue, it is more a question of blowback energy and dwell that are a concern in semi automatic actions. Locked breech designs, such as the bolt rifle or falling block type, are not really effected by changes in recoil energy and pressure dwell, but semi automatics are more or less tuned to a rather tight range or optimal operating conditions based roughly on the pressure wave exerting force on the action to cycle it. They can operate outside of that range, but if the pressure curve results in a lower exertion force, then the action can short stroke, resulting often in misfeeds as the spent case fails to eject or the bolt fails to retrieve the next round in the magazine. Over-exertion is the real concern, as the bolt usually ends up slamming into the bolt stop hard, usually while the spent case is sent flying a considerable distance. Having the action under such stress generates excessive and premature wear, and leads to mechanical failure quicker.

I doubt that high velocity 22 lr ammo is going to cause problems for the 10/22 action. Ruger builds those things fairly stout, and the ammo needs to be factory safe for less sturdy semi-automatic handguns and older firearms anyways, so in factory ammo I would think the margin of safety is more than enough. Since 22 lr is never reloaded, there's no chance for a shooter to overpressure a load in that caliber.

Now reloading centerfire ammo is a whole different hullabaloo. I've seen guys with handloads in 223 that spit cases 40 feet out of a mini-14. Those bolts are slamming the stops hard, and if they are going to shoot such hot ammo, they should really think about getting a smaller gas port or else beefing up their recoil springs. The irony is that by handloading you can tune the ammo to a particular semi-automatic to where it practically egg-lays the spent cases from the ejection port without ever a mis-feed, yet maintains velocity at nominal levels. I've done that with my semi autos and working up some custom recipes. That same ammo would repeatedly fail to cycle properly in someone else's gun.

I doubt that any 22 lr ammo manufactured today is going to hurt your 10/22.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#161672 - 01/07/09 12:09 AM Re: Survival gun redundancy [Re: benjammin]
camerono Offline
Member

Registered: 02/19/05
Posts: 146
UPDATE:

My email exchange with Henry Rifles regarding the AR-7 survival rifle I purchased about a year and a half ago.



> To: webletters@henryrepeating.com
> Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 3:18 PM
> Subject: Thank you and a question.
>
>
> I had had some trouble with a survival rifle I purchased
> about a year and a half ago. You repaired it once and then
> ended up replacing it.
>
> I received the new survival rifle a month ago. I had an
> opportunity to try it out last weekend. The performance
> compared to the old rifle was outstanding. Thank You.
>
> I did notice that the new rifle seemed a little more
> hearty in the trigger and receiver area. I also noticed a
> copper or goldish colored pin protruding into the receiver
> area that I didn't notice before.
>
> Is it that I have a bad memory or have some changes been
> made?
>
> Thank you in advance for your response.
>
> Cameron

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 1:01 PM
> Thank you for owning a Henry US Survival. I am sorry you had
> some problems, and yes we made some improvements.
>
> Best wishes for a Happy & Healthy New Year
> Anthony Imperato, President
> Henry Repeating Arms, Co.
> 59 East 1st Street
> Bayonne, NJ 07002
>
>
>
> Telephone 201-858-4400
> Fax 201-858-4435
> Email Anthony@HenryRepeating.com
> Website http://www.henryrepeating.com

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Subject: Re: Thank you and a question.
To: Anthony Imperato <anthony@henryrepeating.com>


Mr. Imperato,

Thank you for the response. As I no longer have the first survival rifle I purchased and can't make any comparisons would you be kind enough to elaborate on all of the improvements?

I am a member of an out door web forum. The Henry Survival Rifle is often a topic of conversation. It would be greatly appreciated by many members of the forum I am sure to have more information on the improvements.

Thank you,

Cameron

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


in SHORT WE HAVE MADE IMPROVEMENTS/CHANGES TO THE MAGAZINE, THE EJECTOR, THE MAG CATCH AND THE BARREL. Best wishes for a Happy & Healthy New Year
Anthony Imperato, President
Henry Repeating Arms, Co.
59 East 1st Street
Bayonne, NJ 07002 Telephone 201-858-4400
Fax 201-858-4435
Email Anthony@HenryRepeating.com
Website http://www.henryrepeating.com

"MADE IN AMERICA AND PRICED RIGHT" (718) 499-5600






End of email exchange.....


Well I guess he was a little hurried or didn't want to answer the question. Anyhow I ran 100 rounds through the new survival rifle and had about 10 misfires.... and a few feeding problems. Although this is not perfect it is substantially better than the previous rifle. It also seemed to have the problems in the first 50 rounds or so. I hope by breaking it in a little more the performance will improve.

I had to shoot at an indoor range so no long range shooting but it was hitting in about 8 out of 8 in a 3 inch circle at 50 feet out of the box with not even a sight adjustment. Will break it in a little more soon and then take it outside this spring and put some time into seeing what king of groupings I can really get.

Would recommend the new and improved version of the Henrey survival rifle but don't expect it to be perfect.

Cameron
_________________________
Publishing seattlebackpackersmagazine.com

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#161908 - 01/08/09 03:15 PM Re: Survival gun redundancy [Re: camerono]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4018
Loc: Anchorage AK
Sounds like a typical New Jersey response. I guess the bottom line is it is definitely new and improved, so with your testing results, that seems appropriate enough.

For what you pay, you are probably getting your money's worth.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#161928 - 01/08/09 04:31 PM Re: Survival gun redundancy [Re: benjammin]
scafool Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 1534
Loc: Muskoka
I am not big on guns. I don't even bother keeping any guns right now.
I used to have a few, but not now.

I will comment on your thread anyhow.

If I was restricted to one firearm for meat getting it would likely be a .22 single shot. Possibly a repeater, but certainly a bolt action, certainly with iron sights but possibly a scope in addition to the iron.
You chose semi auto. That is OK. They work too. The AR-7 is a nice light and easy to store package. Ideal for bush pilots.
A 12 guage shotgun would be the second choice, and something in the 30 caliber range if there was the likely chance of big game that needed to be shot.

Why .22 bolt action? It is reliable, the ammunition gun and ammo are both inexpensive and light to carry. It can be used on almost anything up to the size of a small deer with a pretty good certainty of success. They have killed larger animals but it starts getting pretty iffy. I would not want to try a bear or moose with it, yet people have killed bear and moose with them.

Shotgun? Because of the great variety of loads one gun is good for everything from rabbits up to bear and moose. It satisfies most SD needs if they ever come up too.
This would likely be a pump gun.
A shotgun has about the same range as a .22, or a pistol.
For me the .22 wins on ammo cost and weight over the 12 guage.
It is not easy to choose between them though because of the ability to use the shotgun with different loads for different game including birds.

About the .30 calibers. You know with 303, 30-06, 30-30, 308,etc a lot of different good calibers exist. They have good availability, they can be purchased for a reasonable price and will handle any animal in North America.
The only drawback is the weight of both the rifle and the ammo. Smaller game is just blown away to smithereens with them too. Again a bolt action for reliability.

I would be very unlikely to ever need a higher caliber like a .375 Winchester or Wetherby magnum and using one on anything I might shoot would just be wasting powder.
I tend to think of .223, 5.65 and all of the hyper velocity .22 type rifles as varmint guns. All very flat shooting, but not really great knock down power.
Good for shooting coyotes at long ranges, but not really good meat getters.
Also since I usually hunted forest areas most of my shooting was under 75 yards and only occasionally as far as 1,000 or 2,000 yards.
So no real need for long range stuff

About using crappy ammo.
Well for sure not. It might be OK for plinking or range practice, but not for where you want each bullet to put food on your table.

One thing about the .22 is that it is a trapper's friend.
A line of traps, deadfalls and snares will supply a lot of meat. Aircraft cable will get you more moose, deer and bear steaks than a rifle ever will.
But you might need to kill them even though they are in the trap.
A .22 lets you stay just far enough away to be a bit safe and a well placed shot will finish them off, even of it is just a .22.

Now for backups.
I would likely just get the parts most likely to break or get lost and store them. Things like springs and firing pins or clip parts.
If you want a scope you can get decent demountable scopes that let you still use the iron. If you put a redspot or quick point scope on you will likely just use that for everything anyhow.
You don't need high power scopes on a .22.
They don't shoot that far anyhow.
I doubt if you will ever shoot the barrel of a .22 out, no matter how many bricks of ammo you feed through it.
_________________________
May set off to explore without any sense of direction or how to return.

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#162351 - 01/10/09 10:44 PM Re: Survival gun redundancy [Re: scafool]
sotto Offline
Addict

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 450
Here in the city, my Beeman R1 and/or R7 pellet rifles could potentially keep me in survival meat for quite a while with little or no noise or expense. There are scads of pigeons, seagulls, cats, dogs, squirrels, possums, crows, and giant rats in my neighborhood. Dozens of pigeons and seagulls sit on the power lines next to my house everyday.

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