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#157840 - 12/10/08 02:49 AM Re: Survival in the Arctic - Additional Info [Re: CANOEDOGS]
Chris Kavanaugh Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 3824
Meanwhile, a few thoughts

I spent this past weekend in nearby Santa Paula, at the airport for a fundraising event for the aviation museum.
SP is a lemon grove surrounded community that still holds onto a California of years past.Nearby Camarillo AP, a korea war era F 86 base,is rapidly becoming home to WW2 and other warbirds as Van Nuys AP hikes fees that only owners of Mitsubishi personal jets can afford, not old B 25s.
But SP is small, so small it was almost lost to river erosion during El Nino.
The ships are small too; Cliff Robertson keeps 3 vintage biplanes; two deHavilland Moths and a french trainer.
Almost 30 years ago, I was just home and
working at the second home of a retired art director. We were sitting out front having lunch, I brought some beers, and this loud motorcycle could be heard, violating the CCRs.
My friend's dad, Jan C. Van Tamelen smiled.'Ah that has got to be Steve!'
I didn't think much about that, until Steve pulled in,saw my beers and asked for one.
A few days later I helped drive back a car from Phil Hill's restoration shop after a hilarious ride in a vintage VW bug stuffed with a full race Porsche engine, picking fights with bloulevard cruisers in ferraris owned by orthodontists and tort lawyers.
Steve talked about his new passion, flying and this great place he found in Santa Paula where nobody made a big deal over his presence.
We talked flying, I suggested he carry a usefull pocketknife and a lighter, gifting one of several swiss Champs I had bought at the base PX for gifts before my seperation ( all of $15)
and my paper pocketbook edition of WIND,SAND AND STARS.
Sadly, Steve died within a year of cancer.
This weekend was a memorial of sorts; his wife Barbara came down to the small airport they lived at in a hanger, his memorabilia was on display and some VERY good pilots recalled he was an incredible student, flying up to 4 hours a lesson, remembering everything, duplicating everything perfectly ( honed by fast cars and motorcycles) fearless but never stupid.
The show's high point was not some impressive flyby of P 51 mustangs, but the flight of his bright yellow personal aircraft.
Steve McQueen could afford just about any aircraft available, and probably fly it, even at 59 years old and unknowingly possibly in the first stages of cancer.
He served his apprenticeship, never had a problem, always had fun-and always carried that SAK and a lighter over the green and yellow orchards and blue mountains and ocean.
His ship was a Stearman biplane, and if he didn't fly a P51 or go on hazardous flights, he still knew his full measure.

Edited by Chris Kavanaugh (12/10/08 02:58 AM)

#157851 - 12/10/08 07:56 AM Re: Survival in the Arctic - Additional Info [Re: Roarmeister]
Leigh_Ratcliffe Offline

Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 1355
Loc: United Kingdom.
Originally Posted By: Roarmeister
A bit more information has come to light - I'm quoting only part of the article.

"We heard a hard metallic boom and the front engine quit," co-pilot Edwards-Neil said in an interview in the hospital room the two men shared on Tuesday.

"Two or three minutes later, we heard another boom, then it was really, 'Yeah, we're going down.' "

The pair had five to eight minutes to prepare for a crash landing - just enough time to put on their survival suits, send a mayday message, and aim for a crash landing next to a pan of ice, where the pair hoped to wait out a rescue.

Edwards-Neil said he braced for impact by holding his door open, ready to get out of the plane before it sank.

The windshield smashed on impact, and forced his door shut, but he managed to stick his head far enough out of the window and smash the glass with his back.

The water was to the roof in five seconds, he said.

Fortunately, one wing of the plane was resting on an ice floe. The ice was strong enough for both to walk across the wing to the ice before the plane disappeared into the freezing water.

That left the two men alone, under a half moon and a darkening sky, with no food, shelter, heat or flares.

Master Cpl. Julien Gauthier, a search and rescue technician who helped hoist the two men from the fishing boat onto a Cormorant helicopter on Monday, said their actions were "textbook examples" of an intelligent response to an emergency.

"It's what they teach in survival classes," he said.

To those who think that having your fire-starting gear with you would have been a good asset in this case - I ask you one question - Besides your buddy's clothes what other fuel do you have that you can burn sufficiently to increase your chances of survival? Last time I checked, ice floes don't burn very well and they don't have a lot of vegetation! smile smile smile


Torch. Beacon. Flares.
And whilst we are at it, if they found a stable icefloe being able to cut iceblocks to make a windbreak or shelter could make all the difference between life & death.
Candle to bring the temperature up inside a shelter.
I don't do dumb & helpless.

#157867 - 12/10/08 02:35 PM Re: Survival in the Arctic - Additional Info [Re: Leigh_Ratcliffe]
comms Offline

Registered: 07/23/08
Posts: 1502
Loc: Mesa, AZ

When in different environments, the EDC or BOB kit needs to be re-adapted to the situation. While I don't normally carry emergency candles on me, my travel kits (a five gallon bucket) does.

I haven't flown in a small aircraft in years, but regardless of the transportation, (air, land, sea) I can figure out what I may need in a ditch.

Sounds like for the most part they did the right thing. As a non-aviator, I leave that to those with experience. As someone who tries to be prepared, I'd have had that suit on to start the trip (at least legs in) and my kit on my person with a BOB close.
Don't just survive. Thrive.

#157872 - 12/10/08 03:25 PM Re: Survival in the Arctic - Additional Info [Re: Doug_Ritter]
OldBaldGuy Offline

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
"...jumping out prior to impact, not sure I'd recommend that..."

I kindasorta felt the same way. But that is the Army for you. Yet another reason I joined the AF...

#157873 - 12/10/08 03:27 PM Re: Survival in the Arctic - Additional Info [Re: Doug_Ritter]
OldBaldGuy Offline

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
"...Difficult enough, believe me!..."

I do. I have never seen an aircraft cockpit with any spare room to move around...

#157878 - 12/10/08 03:54 PM Re: Survival in the Arctic - Additional Info [Re: OldBaldGuy]
dougwalkabout Offline
Crazy Canuck
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 2913
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Signalling was the big gap, at least from what I've read.

A SAR aircraft came close to them, but couldn't see them.

#157880 - 12/10/08 03:59 PM Re: Survival in the Arctic - Additional Info [Re: dougwalkabout]
Colourful Offline

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 86
Loc: Yukon
In a radio interview, Hansen said they chose to hit the water instead of the ice. Good idea?

12 hours on the ice, not 18.

More info :

#157882 - 12/10/08 04:20 PM Re: Survival in the Arctic - Additional Info [Re: Colourful]
Bill_G Offline

Registered: 06/06/08
Posts: 92
Originally Posted By: Colorama
In a radio interview, Hansen said they chose to hit the water instead of the ice. Good idea?

That would depend on the surface of the ice. Many might think the surface may be smooth and flat. That isn't always the case. It may have pressure ridges that rise several feet. Not sure how well they could discern the surface condition, as time of day, angle of attack, etc, would affect their ability to make that judgement. Not to mention being occupied with getting their exposure suits on.

They may have determined they knew what the sea state was and went with the "known" quantity. Also, I'm sure the ice looked very small to them. Would be interesting to see a comprehensive debrief of the pilots.

#157898 - 12/10/08 06:44 PM Re: Survival in the Arctic - Additional Info [Re: Doug_Ritter]
Russ Offline

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5338
Ditto. How high above the water does the Army recommend executing this jump? Estimating your height above the surface can be difficult. Jump too high and you're toast.

Problems with jumping out prior to impact is that your water entry is now a direct impact with the water at a speed possibly higher than the aircraft's, but short of terminal V; at least in the aircraft you can somewhat control your impact and minimize damage to your person.

By jumping, rather than being strapped inside an airframe that will absorb the impact, you get to take the water impact directly up your nose at a velocity of gravity's choosing -- I'd guess a fairly high velocity. I'll pass. . .

Whomever in the Army made that recommendation must not have spent too much time running the numbers. Underwater egress training is something every Naval aviator has to do.
Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

#157901 - 12/10/08 06:55 PM Re: Survival in the Arctic - 18 hours on an ice fl [Re: Doug_Ritter]
CAP613 Offline

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 87
Loc: W. PA
You are right the 337 has two doors one on each side but given monocope structure I would not bet on eather one working after a crash.

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