Let's explore the possibilities of apprehended Jews escaping from the Gestapo, the train which transported them, or after their arrival at a Concentration Camp; knowing what we know now about the situations that the Jews faced then.

At the time the Gestapo were arriving would, IMO (& knowing what we know now), would have been the best opportunity to escape being arrested.

While being transported to a camp, would be the second best time to try and escape, IMO.

After arriving at a camp, all prisoners were completely stripped of everything, including the clothes on their backs. Those that weren't killed immediately after their arrival, were worked to death with hard labor, minuscule rations, minimal clothing, and heat in the barracks. All prisoners quickly became too weakened to effect any plans to escape successfully (to the best of my knowledge). Who would have provided support for an escaped Jew??

How would we handle this situation in today's environment, technology level, and where would we get equipment that we needed, to survive in the wilderness, if we weren't able to escape at the "arrest stage", with our BoB's.

I'm sure that my understanding of the Holocaust is grossly incomplete. For that I apologize to all. This seems to me, to be a great time to learn more of that part of history. I do believe that History repeats itself!

What are y'all's views, knowledge, and experiences on such a subject as this????

Kinda sounds like E&E 101 for the folks that have had SERE.

Having said that, one would have to be ready for a very violent confrontation to escape at arrest. Given that, it is either get gone just before they get there, which means some form of good intel, or effect an ambush and eliminate the adversary on grounds of your choosing.

Either way, a very iff'y proposition, given the setting and historical context.

In transit, really isn't much better as you lack control over your surroundings and are probably under the tightest control as your captors know this is the best time for escape.

Once at your destination, one will have to get a feel for the routine and see when it can be exploited.

Above all are three items of interest.
1) be ready to go instantly should the chance arise out of the blue.
2) understand that you may only have the skin on your back to take with you.
3) what reprisals will be inflicted on anyone you leave behind.
IF IN THE MILITARY
All of the above assumes you have the blessings of the senior prisoner.
but then you know that.

I haven't spent much time thinking about this, but the folks in Israel clearly have, and the consensus seems to be: Never again. No more docile submission. Not ever. That seems to be the most effective answer, and perhaps the most convincing argument for the second amendment.

I've only met two people who were there. I can't even explain the horror I felt when I saw those tattoos.

One of them was a woman who was about eight years old at the time. She was with her mother, in the line immediately after arriving at one of the camps. Quick thinking on her mother's part was the only reason they survived. An officer came to the line of people and said, "Can any of you women cook?" Her mother stepped forward, gripping her hand, and said she was an excellent cook. The officer told her to come with him, but to leave her daughter behind. She said, "My daughter is a very good baker." He hesitated for just a moment, then nodded and lead them to where they cooked and baked for the commandant of the camp. Actually, her mother did most of it, at least in the beginning, and then would position her daughter so it looked like she was doing it when anyone looked in.

So, I suppose you would have to be ready to jump in any direction, to take advantage of any possibility.

Sue

Well, as a historian I should point out the reality was a little more complicated than that. The persecutions took place over a long period, basically from 1933 onwards when Hitler rose to power. They involved not only the Jews but also Gypsies, Slavs, many other ethnic minorities, intellectuals, political dissidents, priests, homosexuals and anyone else that was perceived potentially dangerous to the state.

It was a pretty long process from more or else spontaneous anti-semitic incidents to full scale death camps. Most people at the time probably did not or would not realize just where it was all going. Creating a public scapegoat (Jews and all the other "unwanted" groups) was politically convenient for the Nazi party and over time it also became pretty much accepted by the general population.

Just how much the average German knew of death camps is debatable. Officially they were presented as "labor camps", basically prisons were the unwanted elements were supposed to work for the state and "learn new values" so as to become acceptable members of the society once again. In reality, though some of the concentration camps indeed developed very efficient methods of killing and disposing of the weak and elderly inmates they were largely a source of extremely cheap labor, which in great part contributed to the German economy and war effort.

Many theories on what the German and European Jews should have done to prevent the holocaust from happenning are little more than hollow speculation. By the late 30's the Nazi Germany had developed a very complex repressive system. The Gestapo was only part of it. Then there were the SS and the SA, which involved a huge part of the civilian population. Plus the Sicherheitsdienst (SD - Secret Service) and many other, sometimes improvised organizations. For example, the Einsatzgruppen, a huge task force recruited from the SS and the police. The Einsatzgruppen operated in recently conquered territory, particularly in Eastern Europe, right behind the front line. Their job was to exterminate the Jews, communists and all the other enemies of the state.

So what could you do in a situation like that? Not much as experience shows pretty clearly. You can't fight the entire state. Especially if the population at large is against you as well. No safe haven anywhere. SERE from Auschwitz? How are you going to break out? Human waves storming the fence until the guards run out of ammo and the MG 42 overheats? Good luck, there's still the minefield right on the other side of the fence. Plus many thousands of armed, not necessarily uniformed men looking for you with dogs, cars, radios. Besides, just where exactly would you go? It is a long trek to Switzerland. Can you swim to Sweden? How far can you walk starving and dressed in prison clothes? How are you going to get round, let alone cross the border in wartime?

Also, even if the young, able bodied males might resist as long as they are armed and have some means of resupply and support, what about everybody else? Women, children, the infirm? Will you leave your family behind? Waging a guerilla war is tough, especially against an army as powerful as Hitler's. Historically, the only safe way of getting out alive was to move to another country, hopefully on a different continent. Up to about 1938 at least the German Jews were normally allowed to leave the country. By then it was also pretty apparent that the situation would only get a lot worse. Unfortunately, many people either lacked the means to get away or had their heads buried in the sand too deeply.

Thanks, I don't hear such views often. Interestingly, the Israeli government disagrees - we have no second amendment of our own.

There were only two successful breakouts from death camps, one from Sobibor and the other at Treblinka.

Both I believe were not let by the Jewish inmates, but by Russian prisoners.

As was stated above the Nazi's had a very efficient machine in place for moving prisoners to camps and keeping them weak and docile. By the time they got off the trains the prisoners were already exhausted, starving and severely traumatised and were easily herded to their deaths.

The opportunity for escape was almost negligible mainly due to the fact that the Nazi's had been doing this for so long.

Trying to escape into a basically hostile, occupied area whilst in such a poor physical state was almost impossible.

I find it impossible to put this into a modern prison setting, the nearest example I can find could be the prison camps in the former Yugoslavia in the 90's.

Personally I still believe the best time for escape is soon after capture when the situation is a bit more fluid. Once you get into the sausage machine it becomes progressively harder to run the further you are into the process.

Sobibor

Treblinka

Ray Mears has an episode about Belarus, which deals with this question,

www.veoh.com

just enter Ray Mears Belarus into the search and you will be able to watch the whole episode s3e1.

This topic touches on an emotional topic for us. My DW's mother fought with the partisians in (what is now) Belarus, and her father was in the Soviet Army. Both survived the war. Her grandfather and sister (then 1 1/2 years old) died in the Minsk Jewish Ghetto.

There was also a large Jewish Ghetto in Vilnus, (now Lithuania) that managed to form two battalions of self-defense forces, one located in the Ghetto, one of partisians in the forest. A major problem was obtaining weapons under the eyes of the German army. There was an excellent documentary a few years ago called "Partisians of Vilna" the told this story through the testimony on the surviving participants. It was on VHS; don't know if it is still available. Very instructive, especially the need to obtain weapons. Those who remained in the Ghetto mostly died. A lot of those who escaped to the forest and fought lived to tell about it.

There were also a pair of brothers, the Bielski brothers, who organized a Jewish Partisan Brigade in the forests of Belarus. There was a history channel documentary on this, and occasional rumors of a motion picture.

It seems that, despite the hardships and risks, those who fled and fought back had a better chance to survive than those who stayed behind. I think this is the lesson and response to Wildman's query.

+1 on the comments about the attitude of the folks in Israel; they simply do not take any threat as "empty rhetoric." IMO, they tend to look at is as a promise.

Am_Fear_Liath_Mor; thanks for the pointer and link to the Ray Mears video; I will watch it this weekend as soon as I can get done with my pesky earning a living.

If you ever visit Minsk, I suggest a visit to the "Museum of the Great War" that has an extensive area devoted to the Partisans and how they lived in the forests Remember, Russian winters are not to be underestimated. They lived and fought in them.

There was however a key difference between the Nazi persecutions in Germany on one hand and in the territories occupied during WWII on the other hand.

The domestic victims of Nazi regime, especially in the prewar period, had absolutely no effective outside political support. They were being molested, imprisoned, tortured and executed at a time when Europe was still at peace. There was basically no armed resistance against the Nazi regime anywhere. Even after the outbreak of WWII those living in Germany still had nowhere to run.

The occupied territories however - Poland, Soviet Union, Yugoslavia, France, Greece, Norway etc. were either "pacified" or a true war zone. Unlike Germany, the occupied territories were never under total Nazi control. There were always safe havens and there were also groups of organized resistance. In the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia in particular the resistance grew very strong in just a matter of 6 to 12 months. The resistance fighters enjoyed at least partial support of the local population. They also received support of the major combatants - the Soviet Union and the Western Allies kept supplying vital war material, weapons and ammo. Without that kind of help the resistance could not have been sustained. That's also the reason why any attempt at resistance in Germany was doomed from the very beginning.

BTW, Major Hans von Dach contributed an excellent study of guerilla warfare and counterinsurgency measures back in the 1950's, titled Total Resistance. Excellent read if you are seriously interested.

Totally agree with the Israeli method of this scenario. I didn't stop to think of that.

As I put in my first post, the ideas I had were very IFF'y at best. I really think any armed resistance would have been good, but probably futile given the surroundings.

Really glad I never had to find out.

I believe Schindler's list portrays the whole concept quite effectively. By the time it was obvious what was going to happen, it was too late for most to offer any sort of resistance, short of stepping up and taking a bullet.

In school we discussed it and we were all fairly adamant that we wouldn't let such be done to us; that we would've fought them, but watching the movie, it's easy to see how, over a long period of gradual escalation, people could allow such a thing to be done to them.

As Tom_L alludes to above, the conditions favorable to the rise of and the practices of Nazi Germany took place over many years.

Without drawing specific parallels between the politics, economic situations, increasing surveillance of citizens, control of media/use of propaganda, etc. between Germany from the Weimar Republic to Nazi rule and, say, more recent U.S.A., it is definitely instructive to consider how current situations might require a well-equipped person to think and plan for scenarios unfamiliar to most U.S. citizens.

Put another way, there comes a point where one wonders if he's not living large in a hot tub but slowly being boiled alive.

Talk a little about guns in Israel, if you will. I have a naive and uninformed vision of armed teachers and a population educated through universal draft to the use of the uzi and the galil. Is private gun ownership permitted?

An interesting topic.

Lots of people seem to think that if the Fascists were to rise up again they will come in wearing swastikas and jack boots. The reality is that they will come dressed in suits with promises of a better way of life.

One would do well to read Umberto Eco's essay on Eternal PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. or the 14 defining characteristics of PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. by Lawrence Britt.

If you want an excellent fictional account of life in pre and post-war Berlin and the rise of the Nazis, not to mention a damn good detective novel, read a copy of "Berlin Noir".

John E

I agree, we must be vigilant. I see things happening right now that I don't like, although it's debatable which way it will go.

My Mom, being from Holland, was in the Dutch Underground in WW2. One of her brothers was caught sending messages in morse code over the phone lines and was sent to a concentration camp, I think it was Bergen Belsen. They didn't talk about it much, but he survived. He was not quite right mentally for the rest of his life, but nobody blamed him. The rest of her family were very active in the resistance, she was a Pharmacist's apprentice, and had a pass to be out after curfew to deliver medications to people. She would smuggle messages for the Allies in the handlebars of her bicycle.

Talk about some brave people. One of her older sisters housed a Jewish family in her apartment during the war, and got a stipend from the Dutch govt. for doing that for the rest of her life. My grandmother, from a Jewish family (but converted to Catholicism) had to wear the Star of David throughout the war. One of my uncles was Patton's interpreter - talk about some of his stories...

I'll see if I can't get any more of the concentration camp stories from my Uncle. Unfortunately, I don't have too many left.

I had an old Russian professor who fought for the Soviets, was captured and held in a concentration camp by the Nazis, escaped, captured by the Soviets and held in a concentration camp as a spy / traitor (for being captured by Nazis), escaped, and eventually made his way to America across Mongolia and China - which is a long way of saying he had an interesting perspective on persecuting totalitarian regimes in the 20th century. Anyway, he had an personal philosophy, that societies almost always trend one way or the other, long, slow slides into liberalism, long slow swings back towards PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. and totalitarian ideologies. "As long as the hippies are rioting in the streets Tolya far worse things can't be happening." I think there's some sense in that perspective. I know I feel more comfortable during times of liberalism, and uncomfortable especially for the past 8 years of Guantanamo, FISA wiretaps, torture - great concentrations of wealth and power. I don't mean to make a political statement either way, this period of concentrated wealth and power is to some extent pushed by members of both political parties. Goethe said, opportunity creates thieves. A healthy democracy requires that we speak truth to power, find allies and put a voice and bodies behind the tenets of our Constitution, and get in the way of those who would tear it down, brick by brick.

Last night I looked out my window. I saw my Chabbad nieghbors walking to temple. Dark frock coats at sundown are a bad idea and my ETS LED winked into the darkness after a short rabbinical council when my superior logic won out.Now I need a new LED, little Avi the proud new owner.
My gas station is owned by Sikhs. Sikhs have been in California for 5 generations and own a good number of the central Valley farmlands.
Sikhs are upset. A man killed his daughter's rapist and is in jail. The guards took away his turban ( he can hang himself) and issued a statement they weren't anti islamic. Brilliant, Sikhs aren't moslems.
My black nieghbor, who is lighter than most of the tanned surfers in Malibu is upset. Our other nieghbor put up Christmas lights already and they shine into his window.I explained our nieghbors (from India) have a light festival this time of year and he has this really, really neat apartment feature, and check it out, as I demonstrated the curtains.
I was eating panzit, lumpia and San Miguel beer, gift from my retired navy nieghbor for Veteran's Day.

My point (yes, I have one) is this country is an ever more diverse nation united by ideas.the more you know about your nieghbors, the less differences there actually are, and being a jew,black,sikh or filipino is no different than being irish or worse.

Start thinking like that, and nazis, or their ilk become comedic foils for Jake and Elwood.

Each and all members of this forum should heed the example above, as it is the best and most informative "Urban Survival" information I have gained from this or any other website.

Coming from a childhood where racism was almost handed down as birthright from some of my older relatives, life has been an enlightening experience once I opened my eyes to the reality that we really can all get along.

Maybe if we take the chance and get to know all of those around us, we will discover that we really aren't all that different.

Very nicely put Chris.

It must be hard to tell whether one is over-reacting, especially if you don't know the full details of the "labour camps".

I have felt a bit uneasy about attitudes to smokers in the UK - they are sometimes treated as second-class citizens, as dirty and disgusting, segregated in restaurants etc, and generally not deserving of sympathy. They are an easy target. It almost certainly is over-reacting to take this case too seriously, but I think it shows the attitudes are still very much part of the human condition. (I'm a non-smoker, by the way.)

Fyi, there is a new film coming out soon on the Bielski partisans . It's called Defiance. Looks like it's been given the typical hollywood action flick treatment. Not necessarily a bad thing, but most always it is bad.

I didn't know about the executions, I did catch the Ray Mears episode about it. There wasn't any mention of that. It mostly focused on how they hid & survived. Like you said, they did what they had to do to survive. They also had to contend with the so called "fog of war", not any easy task I'm sure....

I think the Jew's experience inside of Germany is proof that once the gates out of the country have closed, you're stuck!!!!!

The next best thing would be to "make like an Apache", the greatest guerrilla fighter ever known.

Of course, that's easier said than done. Laying low at first, while one learns to survive, would be the first priority.

Any offensive actions must be thoroughly planned out first and would require a shifting of location immediately following any such action.

Wolverines!!!

Hmm, I have to think that if things got bad here in this country, they'd be downright appalling most other places, especially those nearby. Anything big enough to make the US a tough place to live would almost certainly spill over globally, and not in a small way. I gotta think that for most cases, staying and resisting would be better than fleeing.

If you are already fairly rural, then you may be at an advantage and able to capitalize on the isolation. For most, relocation would probably mean passing through obstacles that would compromise security too much. I gotta think that for most Americans, leaving the country is just not going to be a viable option.

Chances are that if the situation is bad enough in the US to flee the borders will be shut down and heavily patrolled and crossing them will be quite difficult. In theory I could easily canoe across the border from Minnesota to Canada. However, if that ever becomes something I would attempt, there is a very likely chance border patrols would catch me. I think realistically the only way to get out of a country with a family is before the shtf. It would be much easier to do this on an individual basis than with a family of four, two of which are not yet teenagers. There are plenty of places I could simply walk across the border from Minnesota to Canada, but again I'd have to be able to avoid getting caught and my kids would have to be able to hike a very long way. As a practical matter fleeing is a lot harder to pull off than it seems.

Oh..... my.....!

I had never heard of The 14 Defining Characteristics Of PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER.. I just looked them up. http://www.rense.com/general37/PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER..htm

Is it just me, or do an awful lot of those look awfully familiar?

Sue

I agree with you Susan, and yes, I recognize most of these steps are being followed/executed at the present time.

Very true. Also keep in mind that during a major crisis the armed forces and law enforcement will be authorized to carry out much more drastic measures (including lethal force) than usual. Which could mean anything from a shoot-on-sight policy to mine fields, road blocks, mobile patrols, aerial observation etc. When that happens the civilian population at large is more likely to panic and do foolish things. Add some paranoid survivalists armed to the teeth and the mix becomes even more volatile.

The tv film 'Escape From Sorbibor' is good if you get a chance to see it. When rutger hauer goose steps his russian troops into the camp you think 'the nazis have slipped up letting this bunch in. Tough, organised, disciplined. They aren't going to to as easy to cow as frightened civilians'
The Sock

with the possible exception of number 1. The opposite of those 14 points is happening in the USA. If my answers seem a bit unfocused, please see the original article which I haven't quoted in full because Mr Ritter will rap my knuckles..

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - non americans are surprised to see flags everywhere. But patriotism isn’t necessarily nationalism or a bad thing. This one could be true in some peoples views.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. is closing down Guantanamo bay.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. hasn’t used this technique.
4. Supremacy of the Military - the US military is struggling to fight two wars. What it gets isn’t ‘disproportionate’.
5. Rampant Sexism - a woman is third in line to the presidency. If PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. had won a woman would be second.
Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are not suppressed.
6. Controlled Mass Media - the US has a free media and a right to free speech.
7. Obsession with National Security - PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. didn’t campaign on this.
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - the US has separation of church and state.
9. Corporate Power is Protected - it isn’t.
10. Labor Power is Suppressed - the US has strong unions
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. was a professor and is chosing academic stars for his
staff as someone quipped; 'if the country is attacked during a Harvard Yale game you are in trouble' :-)
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - the police are governed by very strict rules
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - exists but not condoned by the state, businessmen and politicans go to
prison for it.
14. Fraudulent Elections - The USA just had an honest election.

The Sock

Don't want my knuckles rapped either but your simplistic answers are just that. Simplistic. Perhaps living in London gives you a different view of things but each and every one of the 14 characteristics can be found here in the U.S. We've had 8 years of a slippery slope and Mr. PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. doesn't take office until January, even now the current administration is putting rules and executive orders into place that continue the slide.

It is my hope that with the election of Mr. PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. we will see a lessening of the slide towards PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. that is without doubt taking place here in the U.S.

John E.

I didn't want to get into politics by judging whether the present administration was in favour of those things. And refuse to discuss it.
but it's irrelevant.
The direction of your country now; is certainly away from them.
Please provide the evidence that O'bama is going to do any of these things John.
Mr O'bama stands for the opposite of all those things.
The Sock

Well let's see, in one sentence you claim that you'll refuse to discuss it and in another sentence, you ask me to provide evidence for something I never claimed. Given that I'm trying desperately to avoid making this even more political than it has already become, I'll simply say that in my opinion, your earlier comments/responses were overly simplistic in response to the ongoing threat of the rise of PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. in the U.S. and leave it at that.

John E.

P.S. I don't know if it's your computer or what but there is no apostrophe in the name PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER.. His detractors claim he's not American but no one to my knowledge is claiming that he is of Irish descent.

P.P.S. Lest you be mistaken, I am a fervent supporter of Mr. PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. and have great hopes for his administration.