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#154951 - 11/11/08 09:25 PM Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (long)
Jesselp Offline
What's Next?
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/19/07
Posts: 266
Loc: New York
My family had an unpleasant experience the past few days which made me question whether it is really feasible to prepare to "ride out" a pandemic. My plans for dealing with a pandemic have always been of the "bug-in" model. I stockpile enough food, medicines, and other supplies to allow my family not to need to leave our home for several weeks, if necessary. My wife and I each have the ability to telecommute, and we have sufficient computers at home for us both to work at the same time, though childcare would be an issue.

All of this assumes, of course, that we know it is time to "bug-in" before we get sick.

When I went out for an errand in the late afternoon Saturday I heard a report on the radio that NYC emergency rooms were seeing an influx of people with severe gastro-intestinal troubles. Perhaps if I had heard this report in the morning, we would not have gone to a birthday party for a one-year old that morning, but quite frankly, I doubt it. (Can you see where this is going?)

Sunday was a great day. The boys' grandfather came for a visit and we showed him around our new neighborhood. He took us all out for pizza, and headed home at around 3pm when our two-year old went down for his nap. At around 3:30 my wife told me she didn't feel well, and by four she was vomiting with regularity. At 4:30 I heard a blood-curdling scream come from the two-year old's room, and I ran upstairs to find him sitting in bed covered in vomit. Uh oh.

My wife and son continued to vomit on a regular basis for the next six to eight hours. They each tried to drink fluids to stay hydrated, but were unable to keep anything down. My wife became dehydrated to the point that she could no longer nurse our five month old.

My son's pediatrician suggested that I limit their fluids for an hour or so to give their stomachs time to calm down, and then limit them to just a few sips at a time until they could keep that down. He also assured me that I was going to get sick too. Apparently this bug was spreading like wildfire through the city. I did my best to wash my hands constantly and walked around with a bottle of purell in my pocket to try and avoid transferring whatever bug they had to me or the baby. However, the truth is that I was covered with my son's vomit, as all he wanted to do was sit in my lap, and he could not recognize the signs that he was about to throw up again.

Eventually we put out a call for help and my mother (bless her) drove out to the house with formula for the baby and pedialite for my dehydrated wife and son. We isolated her and the baby as best we could from the rest of us. The pediatrician was correct, and by 4:30am I was throwing my guts up too. This was not a simple bout of upset stomach – I spent several hours curled up on the floor of the bathroom alternating between shivering cold and sweating hot. My wife and I were unable to care for the baby in any meaningful way once the vomiting started, and luckily there was a twelve hour window between when my wife got sick and I did, and that my mother was able to rush out and help us.

I was amazed by how quickly we went from having a happy weekend to all being very sick. I'm guessing that my wife and son picked up the bug somewhere, and then I picked it up from them. It's possible the baby picked it up first, but I tend to doubt it. We were never in any real danger – a fully functional medical system was just a 911 call and / or a short drive away, and the pediatrician called within ten minutes of my paging him, but it was eye opening indeed.

What did I learn? / Questions for the group:

1) If this had been a pandemic flu – or something worse – we could all be dead. And we'd likely infected my mother and father as well, before we even knew we were sick. While we probably would have managed this without my mother's help if we had to, if the illness had lasted longer we would not have been able to.
2) You cannot rely on the news media to let you know it is time to put "universal precautions" in place. By the time I heard there was a bug going around, my family was likely already infected. What clues are others looking for to warn them of a severe illness making its way through their community?
3) Caring for sick family members is emotionally draining. My two-year old was literally begging and crying for juice (pedialite) and I had to withhold it from him to get his stomach to settle. We were about two hours away from our deadline for him keeping fluids down before we were going to head for the hospital to get him an IV. (At that point he would have been vomiting for twelve hours)
4) Things happen when you least expect them to. Most of my "stuff" was still at our old apartment, including the emergency supply of baby formula, thermometers, and most medications. I need to make sure I have more comprehensive supplies with me whenever we travel.
5) You can get sick FAST. My wife went from feeling perfectly fine to being completely incapacitated in about 30 minutes.
6) We're not the only ones. Two of my colleagues were out sick on Monday, and one of my clients had a trip to the ER for an IV yesterday.
7) Where do you draw the line? If I had known there was a stomach bug going around, would I have kept my family from going to a birthday party? What if it was the flu? Other sicknesses?

Anyone have any thoughts or wisdom on preparing for a pandemic, and more importantly, on the "bright lines" that will cause you to implement your action plans?

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#154959 - 11/11/08 10:31 PM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (long) [Re: Jesselp]
wildman800 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2846
Loc: La-USA
Greetings JesselP,

You have posed questions that I have been wrestling with (from several directions) for a long, long time. My answers are going to wander a wee bit to perhaps provide you with food for thought by reflecting on some other scenarios:

1) If this had been a pandemic flu – or something worse – we could all be dead. THAT'S A FACT, JACK!!!

2) You cannot rely on the news media to let you know it is time to put "universal precautions" in place. ....... What clues are others looking for to warn them of a severe illness making its way through their community? I CAN'T RELY ON THE NEWS MEDIA FOR ANY NEWS OF A REALTIME NATURE, WHICH IS WHAT'S REQUIRED. I TRY TO LOOK AT VARIOUS INTERNET NEWS SITES FOR INDICATORS OF WHAT'S A THREAT OR WHAT IS NOT. IF I HEAR THAT MOSCOW OR BEIJING IS BEING EVACUATED, I THINK THEY ARE ABOUT TO LAUNCH NUKES AT US AND THEN I WILL ACT ACCORDINGLY. SHORT OF AN EPIDEMIC OR PANDEMIC BEING OFFICIALLY "ANNOUNCED", I HAVE NO INDICATORS WHEN TO CALL EVERYBODY HOME AND START A SELF-IMPOSED QUARANTINE. SHORT OF AN OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT, WHOSE EMPLOYERS ARE GOING TO RESPECT YOUR "PARANOIA" IN SELF-IMPOSED QUARANTINE?????

3) Caring for sick family members is emotionally draining. THIS IS ALWAYS TRUE FOR ANYONE WHO CARES FOR SOMEONE ELSE ON A 24/7 BASIS. YOU HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO SLEEP AS/WHEN YOU CAN AND JUST KEEP PLUGGING ALONG. THERE IS NO OTHER OPTION UNLESS THE GRANDPARENTS CAN COME AND HELP. tHEY ARE AT RISK THEN AND THEY MAY HAVE BROUGHT IN WHAT YOU'VE BEEN AVOIDING TO THE REST OF YOU (HEALTH WISE).

4) Things happen when you least expect them to.
THIS IS WHY I TOOK MY BOB AND WEAPONS WITH ME ON THAT LITTLE 160 MILE ERRAND THAT I RAN THE OTHER DAY.

5) You can get sick FAST. My wife went from feeling perfectly fine to being completely incapacitated in about 30 minutes.
I TOO HAVE EXPERIENCED THE SPEED THAT A BUG CAN LAY YOU OUT. AT TIMES, ALL YOU CAN DO IS HANG ON AND DEAL WITH WHAT HAS TO BE DONE AND FORGET EVERYTHING ELSE.

6) We're not the only ones.
SOMETIMES HAVING COMPANY DOESN'T HELP YOUR FEELINGS!!!!!

7) Where do you draw the line? If I had known there was a stomach bug going around, would I have kept my family from going to a birthday party? What if it was the flu? Other sicknesses?
STOMACH BUGS ARE ALWAYS GOING AROUND,,,,OR STREP THROAT,,,,OR SOMETHING!!! I HAVE NOT FOUND A REALISTIC SOLUTION IN THE REALITY IN WHICH WE ALL LIVE. STAYING AT HOME ONLY WORKS WHEN YOU'RE ALREADY SICK OR WHEN AN EPIDEMIC/PANDEMIC HAS BEEN OFFICIALLY DETERMINED BY THE POLITICAL TYPES. BY THEN, IT'S TOO LATE FOR MOST!!!!!

I'm sorry that I have nothing better to offer. This is a problem that I am wrestling with irt many threats. If I come up with anything better,,,I WILL POST IT HERE!!!!
_________________________
QMC, USCG (Ret)
The best luck is what you make yourself!

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#154964 - 11/11/08 10:49 PM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (long) [Re: Jesselp]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
Bugging in against a panademic is fortification plan. And just like most forts, once the bad guys are through the gates, your probably hosed.

On the other hand, being able to execute this option is what we are planning for.

My intell comes from an excellent source- my mother is a medical librarian. She, the hospital chaplin and the epidemiologist (I think I've got the right person- the germ guy) have coffee every morning to compare intell. My phone rings, and three words from her has me executing my portion of the family plan.
_________________________
-IronRaven

When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

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#154965 - 11/11/08 10:49 PM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (lon [Re: Jesselp]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
Bugging in against a panademic is fortification plan. And just like most forts, once the bad guys are through the gates, your probably hosed.

On the other hand, being able to execute this option is what we are planning for.

As for what you call the "bright lines", my word would come from an excellent source- my mother is a medical librarian. She, the hospital chaplin and the epidemiologist (I think I've got the right person- the germ guy) have coffee every morning to compare intell. My phone rings, and three words from her has me executing my portion of the family plan.
_________________________
-IronRaven

When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

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#154972 - 11/12/08 12:17 AM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (lon [Re: ironraven]
Lono Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/19/06
Posts: 1013
Loc: Pacific NW, USA
I've read John Barry's The Great Influenza, a terrific account of the last great flu pandemic of 1917, and am fairly convinced that the pandemic will be upon us all before we can take precautions or 'execute our fortification options'. Although if you are remote enough and keep enough distance from folks, anything can happen, but even with the best preps the flu will come down on us like rain, and its darn hard to dodge rain drops.

I think every one of your observations are good, and how you got sick should mirror how you may get sick in an actual pandemic. The most alarming thing to me is being sick, and unable to care for others. Your kids could be dying, while mom and dad are dying too, a day before or a day after the flu has run its course through others. Its a crapshoot, and beyond your control. Build some support systems now, so that in the event your family comes down with the flu, someone can come in and look in on you, and hopefully care for you enough to see you all through. And be prepared to reciprocate for others outside your immediate family.

One other thing about a flu pandemic to expect are the waves of influenza you may be exposed to - it doesn't all come at once, it may come in waves several months apart. Barry's book does alot to describe how this impacted world societies at the time, I really recommend it as a read to prepare for a pandemic. One observation that hasn't been fully confirmed is that folks who survived an early wave of influenza in 1917 appeared to be partially immune to a subsequent wave, that killed plenty of people when it came.

Most of all, just be ready for the reality of a pandemic - you can't run, there's not very many places to hide either. The best preparations may include some steps that don't come naturally to some folks on this forum - self-reliance is not as valuable an adaption as relying on others for surviving a pandemic. Be prepared to be sick, and be prepared to die and to watch loved ones die.

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#154977 - 11/12/08 01:50 AM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (lon [Re: Jesselp]
Doug_Ritter Offline

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Registered: 01/28/01
Posts: 2197
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#154979 - 11/12/08 02:05 AM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (lon [Re: Doug_Ritter]
Nishnabotna Offline
Icon of Sin
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Registered: 12/31/07
Posts: 512
Loc: Nebraska
I think it will be luck if you realize that you need to bug in before it is upon you.
I, hopefully, might get some advance evidence to make that decision since I work at the hospital, but even then I doubt it since I'm merely in a support dept.

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#154990 - 11/12/08 03:49 AM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (lon [Re: Nishnabotna]
Jakam
Unregistered


Good Data Doug Ritter.
I've bookmarked that site!

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#154991 - 11/12/08 03:49 AM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (lon [Re: Nishnabotna]
BlueSky Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/08/08
Posts: 36
Loc: DFW TX
This is so familiar. Our family had a similar experience this summer. My wife took our 9 month old to a pool party (sounded like a good idea at the time...), and the next day he was running at both ends. Then my wife got it, then our 3 year old, then me. As noble as our efforts were to stop it from spreading, it was no use. We almost called the in-laws, but managed (barely) on our own.

I had similar thoughts as you expressed when this happened. We keep stocks of food and medicine on hand, but this reminds me to be more diligent about not getting behind.

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#154999 - 11/12/08 07:38 AM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (long) [Re: Jesselp]
firefly99 Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 05/28/06
Posts: 58
I think the best way to deal with falling sick due to germs.

Is the go to the hospital and get the doctor to give you as many type of vaccination while you are still healthy.

Then when a pandemic comes around, you will be immune or partially immune. You will be in a better shape to survive the early days of the pandemic and not fall too sick.

This should give you enough time to hear the offical announcement and bug-in.


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#155003 - 11/12/08 10:40 AM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (lon [Re: Jesselp]
Grouch Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/08
Posts: 395
Loc: Ohio
I wonder if this is the answer to the desire for early warning: Google Flu Trends.

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#155004 - 11/12/08 10:58 AM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (lon [Re: Jesselp]
Cjoi Offline
Stranger

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 24
Loc: N Cal
Jesselp- Got something like this when I was still nursing and sips of water wouldn't stay down so taking an OTC anti-diarrheal was out. ER admitted for IV fluids and a Compazine suppository.

As you noted, this can hit and debilitate very quickly. We all need to think about what to have on hand to deal with this.

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#155006 - 11/12/08 12:40 PM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (lon [Re: Cjoi]
Tom_L Offline
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Registered: 03/19/07
Posts: 690
Realistically speaking I don't see any way for preparing against such a pandemic. Regardless of all the technology and communication possibilities of our age there simply won't be enough advance warning for most people, especially those in urban areas.

Also, don't forget the incubation period. Most infections only manifest themselves some time (usually a few days at least) after you've been infected. Which means that you may well be carrying and spreading a highly contagious disease right now without even knowing!

I can easily relate to the first post - for a few days now I have had to care for my family because everybody's caught a bad flu. It is pretty tough having to go to work every day, then take care of all the chores, eventually drive a sick kid to the hospital in the middle of the night... Repeat several times over the past four days and you'll know how I feel. smile It's only a matter of time before I get sick, too - only I can't afford to as I have some very important obligations at work next week. Really a crapshoot at its finest.

What I've learned over the years is that there is not much you can do about it. Everyone can get sick. You can however take a few precautions which might not prevent infections or diseases per se but at least they will make the recovery that much faster and easier:
- eat well, avoid junk food, strive for a balanced, natural diet
- avoid excessive coffee, alcohol or tobacco consumption
- work out! very important - good physical fitness is extremely important as it makes you more resistant to infections and if you get sick anyway, it probably won't last as long
- get enough sleep and rest, goes for your mental state, too (stress is bad)
- don't take pharmaceutic products, especially antibiotics or painkillers, unless absolutely necessary; your body may get used to them if you overdo it and they won't work when you'll really need it.

I couldn't emphasize the fitness part too much. This year I had Lyme disease. The first round of treatment was ineffective so the symptoms got worse and I had to take IV antibiotics. That treatment itself was tough. If I weren't in a decent shape before it all began I'm sure it would've taken even longer to get back up on my feet again.

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#155010 - 11/12/08 02:25 PM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (lon [Re: Tom_L]
Stu Offline
I am not a P.P.o.W.
Old Hand

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1058
Loc: Finger Lakes of NY State
Originally Posted By: Tom_L
Also, don't forget the incubation period. Most infections only manifest themselves some time (usually a few days at least) after you've been infected. Which means that you may well be carrying and spreading a highly contagious disease right now without even knowing!


you beat me to it
_________________________
Our most important survival tool is our brain, and for many, that tool is way underused! SBRaider
Head Cat Herder

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#155013 - 11/12/08 02:40 PM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (lon [Re: Stu]
Glock-A-Roo Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 1076
Great post, and very sobering. A pandemic is definitely a poop sandwich: no matter how you take a bite, it's going to be unpleasant.

Another factor to consider is how easily our healthcare system can be overwhelmed by a large scale public health disaster. It doesn't take long to run out of beds, and I can tell you with certainty that a non-trivial percentage of healthcare workers are not going to show up for work during a pandemic.

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#155015 - 11/12/08 02:48 PM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (long) [Re: firefly99]
Lono Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/19/06
Posts: 1013
Loc: Pacific NW, USA
Originally Posted By: firefly99
I think the best way to deal with falling sick due to germs.

Is the go to the hospital and get the doctor to give you as many type of vaccination while you are still healthy.

Then when a pandemic comes around, you will be immune or partially immune. You will be in a better shape to survive the early days of the pandemic and not fall too sick.

This should give you enough time to hear the offical announcement and bug-in.



These are good thoughts - annual flu vaccine is the best bet you have against a possible pandemic. But remember, the very definition of a pandemic is a strain of influenza to which you have no resistance, and in the even the dice roll and the wrong strain of flu comes up, whatever immunizations were available that year are unlikely to provide very much protection. There is a period after detecting the actual strain while they are preparing a new vaccine, when everyone will be entirely exposed. Once the vaccine is prepared, the question will be how much, and who will get it. Current plans are to give it first to those who are caring for the sick, medical staffs etc, then also the target populations, those who are dying most from it. This seems to vary, sometimes it is the young, sometimes the old.

Pandemic always makes me think of panic, of which there is plenty during the actual pandemic. The better prepared you are for what may come, maybe the less panic you'll feel. I recommend reading up on it, the CDC has some good info too, and the Canadian health services has some especially good materials. Barry's book on the 1917 Great Influenza is pretty good, it even puts the pandemic in the context of the development of modern American medicine, which in point of fact hadn't actually happened by 1917.

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#155016 - 11/12/08 02:51 PM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (lon [Re: Stu]
Henry_Porter Offline
Member

Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 111
Thanks for sharing your personal scenario, Jesselp. Many aspects of interest (and maybe a little alarm) here. Definitely makes me think differently about equipping for sickness, let alone a widespread pandemic.

The Google Flu Trends site is a good tip, Doug. (It's also a reminder of Google's ability to mine data and to collaborate with third parties.)



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#155022 - 11/12/08 03:21 PM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (lon [Re: Jesselp]
Arney Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Jesselp
Anyone have any thoughts or wisdom...on the "bright lines" that will cause you to implement your action plans?

Unfortunately, a pandemic is like trying to call the start of a recession--you really don't know for sure except in hindsight. I appreciate your comments.

I was going to say that your comments also apply to bioterrorism (another legitimate concern in NYC), but in some ways, it's even harder to identify a pandemic early. With bioterror, you could be dealing with specific, identifiable diseases or agents, like "weaponized" anthrax, which you normally wouldn't find in nature. A real bioterror weapon would likely quickly kill many people. There may also be public announcements from terror groups related to the attack.

In contrast, a pandemic is more like rising floodwaters. Sure, it may be obvious that water is lapping at the bottom of your front steps now while you sit there watching it, but at what point do you say, "Yikes, it's really a flood!" The death rate from Spanish Flu was "only" estimated around 2-5% so the resulting deaths may only seem sporadic in the early stages and even when those reports come out, it may not be obvious to people that this outbreak is truly a problem for a while longer.

Public health officials have a tough job on their hands. Unlike hurricane forecasters, who have this realtime picture of a hurricane on a computer screen, the biggest problem is just knowing about various illnesses happening in their jurisdiction. Hard to get a bird's eye view when you're dealing with hospitals, clinics, and private doctors' offices which don't necessarily share any data with you, especially on a timely basis. Then there's the delicate balancing act of not crying wolf and unnecessarily causing panic. Of course, they get skewered if something bad happens and they don't warn the public early.

Even on a personal level, how does one really know when they or their family is stricken? Say the pandemic is some deadly strain of influenza. Flu season usually involves multiple flu strains. You feel that scratchy feeling in the back of the throat, that slight headache, that midnight bout of the runs--is this it? Or is it just a normal bug that you picked up at work? Or is it another innocuous illness? Do you blow your limited supply of antiviral meds that you somehow obtained in preparation? Do you immediately take some vacation time and head to the vacation cabin? Hard to know for sure at that stage.

Although we like to think that we are modern and smart and have all this technology, a pandemic is just one of those situations that is very difficult to identify until you're in the thick of it. If we're "lucky", it causes a big problem in another part of the world first, giving us time to evaluate and prepare.

One last thing--although I can certainly understand the bug-in/bunker mentality, in general, I think we are usually far better off trying to help one another in various calamities than just disappearing in a dark hole until the smoke clears. But that's more of a moral/philosophical point than a survival strategy.

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#155024 - 11/12/08 03:26 PM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (lon [Re: Henry_Porter]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
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Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
Theoretically, you can prepare for a pandemic. Realisitically, unless you are already practicing isolation from public contact, you are not going to prevent infection.

Give it another 50 years or so, when nanite technology advances enough to where we can receive an innoculation of bug-killer robots that will last a lifetime and go after viruses and bacteria inside the host.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#155029 - 11/12/08 03:47 PM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (lon [Re: benjammin]
dougwalkabout Offline
Crazy Canuck
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Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 3219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Good topic.

I had a bout with some Norwalk-like virus a couple of months ago. It knocked me down and put the boots to me in less than two hours.

With a pandemic, we may get some early warning from hotspots in Asia. No guarantees, but people are watching for this very closely.

For me, that would be the cue to limit public exposure and use all reasonable infection control measures. Commercial air travel can bring the pandemic just about everywhere within days.

My big worry in a pandemic is that other family members (esp. elderly parents) will be deathly ill. I'd have to go out and help despite the risk. There's really no other option I'd be willing to live with.


Edited by dougwalkabout (11/12/08 03:48 PM)

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#155048 - 11/12/08 07:19 PM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (lon [Re: dougwalkabout]
Lono Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/19/06
Posts: 1013
Loc: Pacific NW, USA
Don't worry, in a pandemic your elderly parents will be struck with the flu, so will your brothers and sisters and kids and neighbors and the UPS delivery man who collapses on your doorstep. Evidence shows that eventually even the most remote and cloistered souls will get the flu in a pandemic. I say don't worry, you might, but do more than worry about it, prepare for it. Not everyone dies, and by you providing the best care you can, not every one you know will die. If there's a hospital bed available put your child/wife/parent in it, if not do your own very best within your training. Focus on what you can do, read and train up on treating the flu. Use some of those blue nitrile gloves and N95 masks you cache away for worst case events - the flu can be a worst case event. You'll increase everyone's odds of survival if you do.

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#155049 - 11/12/08 07:30 PM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (lon [Re: Arney]
thtimster Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 45
Does taking medication like Immodium help if you are suffering from the flu symptom of diarrhea? Providing you aren't vomiting too much to take the Immodium. The kind I take dissolves without having to wash it down with water.

BTW my father who was born in 1909 lost a little sister to Influenza when he was a boy. That would have been the time of 1917. They had on picture of her & my dad taken before she had become ill & that's about the only rememberance of her they had.

Tim

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#155051 - 11/12/08 08:15 PM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (lon [Re: thtimster]
Arney Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: thtimster
Does taking medication like Immodium help if you are suffering from the flu symptom of diarrhea?

I am not a doctor so please consult with your own doctor if you actually experience a bout of severe diarrhea, but to answer your question, no, Immodium won't "help" diarrhea, unless you're simply referring to stopping the need to run to the bathroom every ten minutes. Medicines like Immodium just slow down/immobilize your intestines so it's not getting "pushed out" but you're still losing fluid into your gut. After using Immodium, you could become dehydrated without ever needing to sit on the can. Certain infections will also resolve more quickly if you let your body naturally flush them out of your gastrointestinal system.

Better to try and keep hydrated. There are recipes for homemade oral rehydration solutions (ORS) you can make with stuff like table salt, sugar, baking soda (I know I've posted at least two different recipes in the past) or else you can buy a number of commercial products. Pedialyte is good for infants and young children. There are also companies that sell powder packets with the World Health Organization's official ORS recipe. I like and highly recommend a drink powder like Hydralyte (formerly Gookinaid) for routine drinking as well as for more urgent rehydration needs. Ceralyte is another ORS, rice based, which comes in various formulations.

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#155052 - 11/12/08 08:22 PM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (lon [Re: benjammin]
Henry_Porter Offline
Member

Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 111
Originally Posted By: benjammin
Give it another 50 years or so, when nanite technology advances enough to where we can receive an innoculation of bug-killer robots that will last a lifetime and go after viruses and bacteria inside the host.


Man, 50 more years?! It's been almost that long since Fantastic Voyage.

Just as well; I don't trust robots. Or apes.

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#155055 - 11/12/08 08:32 PM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (lon [Re: Lono]
Jeff_M Offline
Addict

Registered: 07/18/07
Posts: 665
Loc: Northwest Florida
Originally Posted By: Lono
Evidence shows that eventually even the most remote and cloistered souls will get the flu in a pandemic.


It is advantageous to delay contracting the flu as long as possible. It is far better not to fall ill during the peak of a pandemic, when medical resources will be seriously overtaxed, and a vaccine may become available in the meantime.

Jeff

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#155056 - 11/12/08 08:34 PM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (lon [Re: thtimster]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
I just read something the other day about bird flu/pandemics.

From Marc Siegel, professor of medicine at New York U School of Medicine: "The fear of bird flu has become particularly virulent. There is a vaccine for this fear: it is called information with perspective."

The media trots out bird flu pandemic possibilities during news lulls; now that the elections are over, we shall probably see more of it. Just keep in mind that in the last five years, there have been 243 deaths from bird flu. Most of them have come from direct contact with diseased poultry, but none of those cases were passed on to another human. It has never been found in any of the Americas. The USGS has tested nearly 200,000 migratory birds and can't seem to substantiate the opinion that their are a major source of H5N1.

Annual deaths worldwide by regular flu is generally in the half-million range.

Be aware, but maintain perspective.

Sue


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#155072 - 11/12/08 10:14 PM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (long) [Re: NightHiker]
Jeff_M Offline
Addict

Registered: 07/18/07
Posts: 665
Loc: Northwest Florida
. . . and frequent hand washing is often considered your number 1 best defense.

Jeff

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#155077 - 11/12/08 11:01 PM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (long) [Re: NightHiker]
UTAlumnus Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 1019
Loc: East Tennessee near Bristol
Quote:
If you go to the grocery store once a week see what you can do to go every other week.


Also look at when you go to the grocery. Go at the off times/off days. If the one you usually frequent is busy after work on Friday, go in the late evening on Monday. Change it around until you find the least busy time of the day/week. If you're looking for something in particular, you may have to time it to where you get there shortly before the rush.

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#155097 - 11/13/08 05:46 AM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (lon [Re: dougwalkabout]
Hike4Fun Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 80
I did some reading on this many years ago. I am not in the
health industry. Here is another POV.

Assess the nature of the disease, 1)how it moves and 2)incubation
period.

A long incubation period may be bad, because the disease can
travel and be on all sides of you. Its also hard to keep away
from all people. Any person might be contagious.

How it spreads: directly like TB, Flu etc. or through some
animals like fleas, rats, flies, mosquitoes.

Imagine that a bunch of city people have relocated to rural
areas, camping out, and are tolerated by local people.
Cholera can be carried by flies from excrement leavings.
Yellow Fever can be carried by mosquitos. These are just 2
examples of diseases carred by flies and mosquitos. How are
you fixed for bug netting materials, chemicals etc?

I have read that hospitals would not take highly contagious
patients with bird-flu, during a pandemic. Patients would be
routed to local "treatment" centers.

Read some old and new govenment publications. Maybe, some are
on the web.

Edit:
To more directly answer your question, I had a handheld
scanner (10 years ago) and found it very informative.
There is a constant battle to uprade gov and emergency
radio (and stop you from listening). Ask around.

Ask your "info question" of some reporters: radio, tv,
print, freelance etc. These guys have ways and means,
and workable scanners.

Ask admitting nurses at hospitals and clinics, how you
might get a heads-up on a upsurge of similar cases.


Edited by Hike4Fun (11/13/08 06:23 AM)

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#155099 - 11/13/08 06:34 AM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (long) [Re: UTAlumnus]
Hike4Fun Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 80
Originally Posted By: UTAlumnus
Quote:
If you go to the grocery store once a week see what you can do to go every other week.


Also look at when you go to the grocery. Go at the off times/off days. If the one you usually frequent is busy after work on Friday, go in the late evening on Monday. Change it around until you find the least busy time of the day/week. If you're looking for something in particular, you may have to time it to where you get there shortly before the rush.


Agreed, avoid people.

A doctor reminded me that the germs can be on any package
or even cans. (How long do the germs live and what can
they live in or on?) Also, germs could be on meat or
produce or in ground meat.

You can actually wash fruit with liquid soap; it works.
No soap taste transferred to tomatoes in my experiments.

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#155145 - 11/13/08 07:05 PM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (lon [Re: UTAlumnus]
Arney Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: UTAlumnus
Also look at when you go to the grocery. Go at the off times/off days.

I don't recall seeing self-check-out kiosks at markets when I moved away from NYC, but I prefer self-check-out unless I have too much stuff to fit on that small shelf at the kiosk. Theoretically, you could walk in, pick up all your groceries, pay, and go without ever coming near another person.

Actually, what am I thinking? I'm living in the land of valet parking. I laughed to see valet parking at the airport and shopping malls and certain supermarkets around here the first time. Anyway, we love our convenience, so probably delivered groceries would probably become the norm around here during a pandemic, like how you can get practically anything delivered in NYC.

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#155147 - 11/13/08 07:24 PM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (lon [Re: Arney]
Grouch Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/02/08
Posts: 395
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: Arney
...like how you can get practically anything delivered in NYC.

Yeah, you could have the pandemic germs delivered straight to your doorstep and save the trouble of getting them the old fashioned way. wink

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#155153 - 11/13/08 08:39 PM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (long) [Re: Jesselp]
MartinFocazio Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 2203
Loc: Bucks County PA
In short, no you can't do much about it. If you're caught, you're caught.

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#155165 - 11/13/08 10:38 PM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (long) [Re: MartinFocazio]
ki4buc Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/10/03
Posts: 710
Loc: Augusta, GA
Everything starts as flu symptoms.

There was a post somewhere by an ER doctor saying if you're young and healthy, don't come to the ER ( this was assuming you just had the normal flu ). They were worried you'd pass your flu to those who had compromised immune systems, children, the elderly, and most importantly them. A sick doctor is one that cannot help anyone.

+1 on the avoid people.

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#155166 - 11/13/08 11:27 PM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (lon [Re: Grouch]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
Originally Posted By: Grouch
Yeah, you could have the pandemic germs delivered straight to your doorstep and save the trouble of getting them the old fashioned way. wink


One of the groups that will get the limited stock of medical supplies is truckers who move food. I don't see the pizza delivery guy getting the same treatment, but I would not be surprised if someone was able to wrangle whatever pre-treat that would be available for the delivery crew of a large "to your door" grocery company.
_________________________
-IronRaven

When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

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#155176 - 11/14/08 01:09 AM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (lon [Re: Hike4Fun]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
Originally Posted By: Hike4Fun
Imagine that a bunch of city people have relocated to rural areas, camping out, and are tolerated by local people.


That is part of why they won't be tolerated. They'll be shown the road with directions on how to get to the nearest treatment/refugee center. At least in my area.

I know several people involved in Vermont's contingency planning. I can't go into details, but from what they've bounced off me and by reading between the lines, there is an expectation that a lot of city people will try to become backpack survivalists with maybe a week of supplies and your firewood and water. It is anticipated that some of them aren't going to being to given more than one order to move along.
_________________________
-IronRaven

When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

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#155208 - 11/14/08 02:08 PM Re: Is it possible to prepare for a pandemic? (lon [Re: ironraven]
DesertFox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/04/07
Posts: 339
Loc: New York, NY
The Coast Guard (and I imagine all the armed services) now make pandemic planning required training. This DHS phamphlet outlines it pretty well. Kind of long, but section 3 answers most of the questions/speculation voiced in this thread.

http://www.pandemicflu.gov/plan/pdf/CIKRpandemicInfluenzaGuide.pdf

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