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#152715 - 10/21/08 05:32 PM Re: CERT - is it worth it? [Re: Nishnabotna]
Nishnabotna Offline
Icon of Sin
Addict

Registered: 12/31/07
Posts: 512
Loc: Nebraska
The application for the CERT here states explicitly that the City is non-liable and all activities are at my risk.
Classes start next week.

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#152780 - 10/21/08 11:54 PM Re: CERT - is it worth it? [Re: Nishnabotna]
Schwert Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/13/02
Posts: 905
Loc: Seattle, Washington
I too am in favor of CERT training. If nothing else it is an excellent springboard to start family discussions about preparedness....and can be a whole lot more.

The training in my view is quite basic and more of an introduction to the specific skills, but it can and should lead to increased involvement in the community.

My wife and I did CERT in 2002 which lead to our joining the local RACES/CERT groups and continuing on with monthly training.




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#152804 - 10/22/08 04:59 AM Re: CERT - is it worth it? [Re: paramedicpete]
comms Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/23/08
Posts: 1502
Loc: Mesa, AZ
Hey thanks for the info. I emailed a local contact in my city to see when the next classes start in my town.
_________________________
Don't just survive. Thrive.

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#152953 - 10/23/08 07:17 PM Re: CERT - is it worth it? [Re: paramedicpete]
ki4buc Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/10/03
Posts: 710
Loc: Augusta, GA
In Florida and Connecticut, if you are "activated", you are covered. From my understanding "activated" is defined by the SOP for your sponsoring organization. For example, here in CT, we can't "self-deploy". But, it does seem possible that an EM can create rules that say "after a tornado has passed, CERT teams should activate and check in as soon as possible". That way, you can help, you're legally "activated" by SOP. The training keeps pounding into your head "keep yourself safe", so if you actually do get injured, I wonder if you'll be able to recover anything.

Currently from my understanding, only a few places specifically protect disaster volunteers.

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#152966 - 10/23/08 10:35 PM Re: CERT - is it worth it? [Re: paramedicpete]
Jeff_M Offline
Addict

Registered: 07/18/07
Posts: 665
Loc: Northwest Florida
Originally Posted By: paramedicpete
Questions:

If a CERT Team member is injured while providing assistance during an event, who covers their medical and or disability expenses? If a CERT Team member is injured or disabled and is unable to work, do they have some sort of legal protection from being discharged from their place of employment?


This is not legal advice, although I am a lawyer.

Very generally speaking, officially FEDERALLY activated "intermittent disaster responders," Such as Disaster Medical Assistance Team members, fall under the job protections provided by USERRA (Uniformed Services Employment and Reemployment Rights Act), but are without disability coverage. They are also protected from civil liability under the FTCA (Federal Tort Claims Act).

Unless your state has specific legislation on the topic, I'd guess that you are most likely NOT provided disability, liability or employment protections. But you MAY have some liability protection under your state's version of a "Good Samaritan" law, or not. These state laws vary widely.

Also, be aware that participating in any sort of organized rescue group, whether paid or volunteer, MAY cause you to be excluded from your personal medical, liability and/or disability insurance coverage.

Again, this is offered only for general discussion. Consult an attorney familiar with your jurisdiction's laws for specific information and legal advice.

Jeff

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#153032 - 10/24/08 12:42 PM Re: CERT - is it worth it? [Re: ki4buc]
paramedicpete Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1920
Loc: Frederick, Maryland
Quote:
In Florida and Connecticut, if you are "activated", you are covered.


Is the coverage through the state, county or city municipalities? Under what insurance program are you covered i.e. state or local workman’s compensation, separate government health/disability insurance plan?

Pete

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#153035 - 10/24/08 01:11 PM Re: CERT - is it worth it? [Re: Jeff_M]
paramedicpete Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1920
Loc: Frederick, Maryland
Quote:
Very generally speaking, officially FEDERALLY activated "intermittent disaster responders," Such as Disaster Medical Assistance Team members, fall under the job protections provided by USERRA (Uniformed Services Employment and Reemployment Rights Act), but are without disability coverage. They are also protected from civil liability under the FTCA (Federal Tort Claims Act).

Unless your state has specific legislation on the topic, I'd guess that you are most likely NOT provided disability, liability or employment protections. But you MAY have some liability protection under your state's version of a "Good Samaritan" law, or not. These state laws vary widely.

Also, be aware that participating in any sort of organized rescue group, whether paid or volunteer, MAY cause you to be excluded from your personal medical, liability and/or disability insurance coverage.

Again, this is offered only for general discussion. Consult an attorney familiar with your jurisdiction's laws for specific information and legal advice.

Jeff


Jeff, some excellent advice.

My questions were not for me specifically, but more rhetorical in nature, since I do not believe the CERT system has been “tested” by a legal challenge through a significant injury or death and what the aftermath of a medical, disability or death claim may hold for the individual and/or family of the CERT member.

Generally, “Good Samaritan Laws” are there to protect the “provider” of medical care. It generally protects the “provider” from civil and/or criminal prosecution, requiring the individual providing the care not to exceed their level/scope of training/practice, “do no harm” and not abandon patient care unless safety issues prevent further care or a higher level provide assumes control.

For myself, here in Frederick County, MD, all 1st responders (Fire/Rescue/EMS and Fire/Auxiliary Police), career or volunteer are covered for injury, disability or LODD through the county’s Workman’s Compensation Insurance plan. That is why all volunteers must be current members of a fire company and are legally viewed as county employees, allowing them to be covered by the county's insurance plan. In fact all volunteers are eligible (Spec Ops Team members are required) to undergo the same comprehensive annual physical that career personnel receive each year.

Pete

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#153044 - 10/24/08 01:57 PM Re: CERT - is it worth it? [Re: Jeff_M]
Arney Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Jeff_McCann
Also, be aware that participating in any sort of organized rescue group, whether paid or volunteer, MAY cause you to be excluded from your personal medical, liability and/or disability insurance coverage.

Pete raises a VERY important issue, particularly from a volunteer's perspective If Jeff's point about being excluded from a volunteer's personal insurance does end up applying to someone, and if things like training, SOP's, and signing a "hold harmless" agreement protects the sponsoring organization from liability, then a volunteer who is injured/killed seems to be on their own for any costs.

Which seems unfair, when I think of the implications. Someone makes the effort to volunteer, go through training and whatnot, then steps on a rusty nail while searching tornado-damaged homes as a CERT, and their personal medical insurance could decline to pay the medical bill if they're aware that it was during a CERT activation. On the other hand, Joe the Plumber could be doing "whatever" after the tornado, gets hurt, and is covered by his insurance as a private citizen.

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#153348 - 10/27/08 02:25 AM Re: CERT - is it worth it? [Re: Nishnabotna]
SheetBend Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/18/03
Posts: 26
Loc: California, U.S.A.
I am a CERT instructor for our fire department. The basic 20 hour course is a good introduction to what a family can do in a major disaster. It is designed for the urban setting.
The Community Emergency Response Team (CERT) Program educates people about disaster preparedness for hazards that may impact their area and trains them in basic disaster response skills, such as fire safety, light search and rescue, team organization, and disaster medical operations. Using the training learned in the classroom and during exercises, CERT members can assist others in their neighborhood or workplace following an event when professional responders are not immediately available to help. CERT members also are encouraged to support emergency response agencies by taking a more active role in emergency preparedness projects in their community.

The CERT manuals are available for download from the www.fema.gov site.
_________________________
Luck & Chance favor those who are prepared.

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#153349 - 10/27/08 02:31 AM Re: CERT - is it worth it? [Re: Arney]
SheetBend Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/18/03
Posts: 26
Loc: California, U.S.A.
In California, you can only self activate after a major earthquake and there is visible damage. When you sign in at your designated meeting place, you are covered from any injury to get while doing CERT function under the California Disabilities Act (the state pays).
_________________________
Luck & Chance favor those who are prepared.

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