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#150906 - 10/04/08 09:58 PM Re: Icebreaker merino underwear question [Re: falcon5000]
JohnN Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 966
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: falcon5000
But they are a pain to get the water out once wet, but with a good fire has helped.


And I think this is key. Cotton is fine if you can keep it dry, but once you get it wet, it is miserable and potentially dangerous and difficult to get dried out again.

For example I can get sweaty while hiking and soak my base layer. With a wet Capilene silkweight layer, I can stop, take off my top layers, leave my base layer on, and after a break be comfortable and dry (assuming no rain, etc).

With a cotton tee, I'd still be wet and uncomfortable, and perhaps cold. Basically, I'd probably *need* a fire (or adequate sun, not often handy in this area) to get it dried out and it often can take a fair amount of time. Time best spent doing something else IMO.

I guess my feeling is that if I need to stay warm and I might get wet (in one way or another), I'd pick synthetics every time*.

On the other hand, I go to work in a cotton shirt, undershirt and pants.

But in my car, I have a set of synthetics in case I have to change modes.

YMMV.

-john


* Although, I'll admit, I only wear wool socks. But it keeps you warm while wet, and I try to keep a dry pair handy.


Edited by JohnN (10/04/08 10:00 PM)

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#150907 - 10/04/08 09:59 PM Re: Icebreaker merino underwear question [Re: falcon5000]
JohnN Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 966
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: falcon5000
Ok, thanks John. I was looking for a long john replacement that would be faster drying and control wicking a little better.


It does just fine at that IMO.

-john

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#150911 - 10/04/08 10:41 PM Re: Icebreaker merino underwear question [Re: ]
Chris Kavanaugh Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 3824
A base layer has to be matched with the activity level just like any succeeding layers. A 150 is fine for high activity levels, 200 for general use and the heaviest stuff for near arctic conditions of minimal or slow movement.
In the past I've used, and I know Randy Schwert uses fishnet base layers available from Brynje and Wiggys. This does mechanically give us that depth of microclimate Cody Lundgren discusses. Over that I like the woolen products.

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#150916 - 10/04/08 10:55 PM Re: Icebreaker merino underwear question [Re: falcon5000]
nursemike Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 870
Loc: wellington, fl
Originally Posted By: falcon5000
I know how they say cotton kills, etc.. I have been wearing cotton long johns in the military, skiing, etc.. and they have kept me warm in some pretty cold conditions.


Generally, the guy who is telling me that cotton kills is standing there in his cotton bdu pants that all the sar folks wear. He indicates then that cotton is okay for pants, but not for torso or core coverage. Lots of important torso parts are actually in his pants, but logic, and irony, have no place here.

Clearly, cotton doesn't kill. It only maims.
Usually the 'cotton kills' diatribe is directed toward folks who wander into the woods in cotton shorts and t-shirts, and get caught in a 40 degree rainstorm. If they were in polypropylene shorts and t-shirts, they would still be hypothermic. Fabric isn't the issue; poorly- designed or poorly chosen clothing is the real problem.


In the Northeast and midwest, folks who spend serious time outdoors, doing serious work, often wear cotton thermals and cotton Carhart coveralls. If cotton kills, you would see stacks of cadavers in the gutter due to textile-induced hypothermia. In the northwest Filson cotton have garments served for years.Carhart and Filson gear is not cheap, and is not second best. The synthetics enjoy the benefit of marketing services-marketers being the people who taught us that folks who live in a country with fabulously pure tap water should pay $4/gallon for bottled water from France. Marketing creates a new conventional wisdom, bring us synthetic garments, titanium cookwear, over-engineered cutlery. It all sells at a premium, confers status on the purchaser, and generates lots of noise in the literature. And it seeks to replace the cotton and wool garments, aluminum and steel cookware, and Mora knives, all of which do the job at least 95% as well as the new technology while costing a fraction as much as the new stuff.

Reading Blast's Blog brought this home to me recently. I had been coveting the Olicamp cup that slide over a nalgene bottle-one of his kit pictures revealed to me that a 15oz stewed tomato can with improvised handle serves the same function at no cost. Thanks, Blast-
_________________________
Dance like you have never been hurt, work like no one is watching,love like you don't need the money.

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#150932 - 10/05/08 03:07 AM Re: Icebreaker merino underwear question [Re: nursemike]
dougwalkabout Offline
Crazy Canuck
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 3219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
I don't buy the argument that synthetics are all hype and marketing. Synthetics are the proven winner for the self-propelled traveller who doesn't have the option to jump in a truck and dry out. They're also good value because they last and last.

That said, cotton thermals have their place. The waffle weave seems to dissipate moisture better than jeans or T-shirts.

There's a cotton/wool hybrid made by Stanfields that I wear in very cold weather. It has a onionskin thin poly/cotton layer bonded to medium-weight wool, and it's very comfortable to wear.

But these days I basically live in synthetics, and see no reason to go back.

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#150937 - 10/05/08 04:02 AM Re: Icebreaker merino underwear question [Re: Frankie]
Frankie Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 736
Loc: Montréal, Québec, Canada
Thanks everyone for the replies. I'll go to the new Icebreaker store downtown and try Icebreaker 200 long johns top and bottom as it's only a couple of dollars more than the 150 for an all purpose winter wicking layer and see how it works and compare to synthetics. Some reasons for my choice of wool are it doesn't stink as synthetics like polyester or polypropylene and it doesn't melt to the skin...

Frankie

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#150945 - 10/05/08 12:42 PM Re: Icebreaker merino underwear question [Re: Frankie]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
Originally Posted By: Frankie
. . . Some reasons for my choice of wool are it doesn't stink as synthetics like polyester or polypropylene and it doesn't melt to the skin...
I like both wool and synthetics. Polypro did take on odors and it seemed they were there for good. Coolmax doesn't seem to have that problem and as for melting, another option worth consideration is Massif. Their Nomex Hotjohns work great as a base layer. They don't seem to have that odor problem either. Pricey, but good stuff. I keep their FIRELITE PULLOVER in my flight bag.
_________________________
Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

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#150949 - 10/05/08 01:38 PM Re: Icebreaker merino underwear question [Re: dougwalkabout]
nursemike Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 870
Loc: wellington, fl
Originally Posted By: dougwalkabout
I don't buy the argument that synthetics are all hype and marketing.


I am 95% sure that you are right in this, and that I am wrong. The lingering 5% consists of 2 weaknesses in my own character-thinking-doing:

I like new technology, and want it. marketing works really well on me, and has led me to acquire things that I do not, on reflection, need. Things like knives, firearms, clothing, trucks, women...

I really did not see the nalgene/bis-Phenol A thing coming. I have cheerfully consumed a couple of liters of water each day from clear shiny nalgene containers. Felt good about it, too: cheap tap water, no disposables, and a blow against the loathsome marketers. So BPA toxoicity studies come along, and suggest that some plastics leach methyl-ethyl-bad-stuff into me. May be good science, may not. There is eveidence out there that asbestos and DDT may not be as bad for us as originally believed. Is the revisionist science better than the scary science? Is the
entire picture clouded by the interplay of science, economics, politics, ideology, marketing and scientifically-semi-literate me? Dunno. Will there be a study soon that demonstrates that the polypro shirt and fleece that I am wearing are causing brain damage, hypertension, and premature balding? (Clearly, something is doing so, or I wouldn't be the fellow I am today-it might be the clothes.) As always, the right answer is to just try to keep doing the next right thing, get advice from wise forum-dwellers, and react to the information as it comes available.

This much is probably true: George Mallory climbed all, or most of, Mount Everest in cotton, wool, and silk. whereas current climbers mostly use gore-tex, fleece and down. Lots of people still succumb to hypothermia, so it ain't just the clothes.


_________________________
Dance like you have never been hurt, work like no one is watching,love like you don't need the money.

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#150952 - 10/05/08 01:55 PM Re: Icebreaker merino underwear question [Re: nursemike]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
Regarding BPA Toxicity. NBD, I continue to use the same polycarb bottles I've had and used for years.
_________________________
Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

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#150961 - 10/05/08 03:51 PM Re: Icebreaker merino underwear question [Re: Russ]
Frankie Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 736
Loc: Montréal, Québec, Canada
Thanks for mentionning this option. Since I'm not a pilot and try to avoid mail ordering as much as I can, I think this is not for me. I'm also a proponent of Cody Lundin's principle that your kit components should be easily purchased or made. BTW, wool still stinks less than polyester. I think Icebreaker claims that the record without washing them is 169 days.

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