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#150869 - 10/04/08 12:39 PM Re: Best Concealed Handgun [Re: Russ]
unimogbert Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 855
Loc: Colorado
In the court case after you shoot the intruder it will be hard to explain in a good way why you put on hearing protection. That would be presented as evidence that you intended to commit murder.

Massad Ayoob's In The Gravest Extreme is good reading for getting one to think about the court fight afterwards.

Would you be willing to trade a little reduction in hearing against going to jail for murder? I would.

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#150876 - 10/04/08 03:02 PM Re: Best Concealed Handgun [Re: unimogbert]
Arney Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: unimogbert
In the court case after you shoot the intruder it will be hard to explain in a good way why you put on hearing protection.

I actually have In the Gravest Extreme and Stressfire on order, but for those who have read them, does Ayoob actually cite any real cases where wearing hearing protection was actually pivotal in the outcome of a lawsuit, or heaven forbid, a criminal case? Because I tried looking on the web in the past and couldn't find any.

You often hear that "Wearing ear plugs could be used against you" line whenever hearing protection is discussed. Even more common in discussions are: "Only use factory ammo for self-defense, not your handloads" or "Use a plain Jane weapon like your grandpa's wood-stocked double barreled shotgun and not your tricked out 'tacticool' assault rifle", etc. Again, I've never been able to find any cases where it actually mattered, let alone was even used at trial. I wonder if these "common knowledge" ideas are more of an urban legend?

Heck, going back to the OP's topic of CCW, the same argument could be used against anyone who carries concealed (Were you out looking for trouble, Mr. Defendant, when you provoked an incident with my client?) or someone who buys more than a box or two of ammo at a time, like that screaming deal on a case at the gun show (1,000 bullets? Mr. Defendant, why on earth would any sane person need 1,000 bullets at home? Just how many innocent people did you intend to gun down besides my client?).

Seriously, I'm interested. If anyone can cite any cases, I'd like to read up on them.

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#150877 - 10/04/08 05:49 PM Re: Best Concealed Handgun [Re: Stretch]
PSM Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 77
Loc: Cochise Co., AZ
You guys just jogged my memory.

I remember reading that Russian tankers' helmet intercom would "click" at the first movement of the main-gun trigger. This supposedly closed down their ear canals to help block the sound. You can see the effect with pets.

Any armor guys here that confirm or refute this?

Pat

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#150881 - 10/04/08 06:20 PM Re: Best Concealed Handgun [Re: unimogbert]
NAro Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/15/01
Posts: 484
Originally Posted By: unimogbert
In the court case after you shoot the intruder it will be hard to explain in a good way why you put on hearing protection.


O.K. So if you don't tell, I won't tell.

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#150918 - 10/04/08 11:20 PM Re: Best Concealed Handgun [Re: Arney]
unimogbert Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 855
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Arney

I actually have In the Gravest Extreme and Stressfire on order, but for those who have read them, does Ayoob actually cite any real cases where wearing hearing protection was actually pivotal in the outcome of a lawsuit, or heaven forbid, a criminal case? Because I tried looking on the web in the past and couldn't find any.

Seriously, I'm interested. If anyone can cite any cases, I'd like to read up on them.


Ayoob would have been the one to do the research and publish it. He had and may still have a monthly column in American Handgunner on such topics. Might not be any cases. I brought it up as a consideration. It only takes one case - YOURS - for a politically driven anti-self defense DA to ruin your life after you survived whatever it was you used your gun for. If you put earplugs in before going to see what the noise was about - that would be stupid. You need all your senses to investigate.
If you put on electronic hearing protection- that would work better but would still potentially arouse suspicions about your motives.

If I were a juror, it wouldn't be a factor unless the case wasn't clear self-defense.

Your choice as to what to do. Just think about the court case afterwards as you make your decisions.


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#150920 - 10/05/08 12:15 AM Re: Best Concealed Handgun [Re: unimogbert]
Nishnabotna Offline
Icon of Sin
Addict

Registered: 12/31/07
Posts: 512
Loc: Nebraska
There should only be one consideration:
Do you feel threatened enough to justify taking a life?

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#150972 - 10/05/08 05:23 PM Re: Best Concealed Handgun [Re: Nishnabotna]
CJK Offline
Addict

Registered: 08/14/05
Posts: 546
Loc: FL, USA
I have In The Gravest Extreme in front of me.....don't see anything regarding a specific case.....

Now his book "Stressfire" has more information about the body's physiological response to the stress it undergoes during a shooting...though not as much as I would like......

The book "In Self Defense" 'The Legal, Ethical and Tactical use of Deadly force' by Michael T Izumi ISBN 0-936279-15-x

Has a much larger area devoted to the physiological effects of both the shooter and the one shot....I have found this book to be quite good for a place to start for information. Though even this book does not have nearly as much as I'd like.

These are the 3 books I suggest to all of my students before they come to my class....

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#151045 - 10/06/08 02:34 PM Re: Best Concealed Handgun [Re: CJK]
BillLiptak Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/19/07
Posts: 259
I'll chip in my 2 here, like most every one else has said...before you buy a gun for self defence handle a bunch of them. See how they feel to you. Shooting them is even better, but you may be able to whittle down your choices simply by handling one in a shop first.
Get some one on one training. Experience is priceless and can not be replaced by gee-gaws, gadgets or mall-ninja goodness.
Smaller and lighter normally translates to easier carry, but harder to control. More pronounced the higher up the power of the pistol. Bigger and heavier normally translates to harder to conceal and more of a "burden" to carry. It also normally means easier to control and make the shot count. And the follow up shot(s) if needed.
Only you will be able to decide what balance works best for you.
What caliber is best? Everybody has a favorite, looking at what the police carry is a good benchmark...
Personally I love the 40 smith and wesson round. Or 10mm short if you want to look at it from another angle. 38 special, .357 mag, .357 sig. .45....all will do the job if you do yours. Find a caliber that you are comfortable shooting. Use good self defence ammunition. Just like the police do. I like golden sabers and winchester's sxt.
Don't skimp on the leather! A good holster and belt is paramount to "comfortably" carrying a handgun all day. A good leather belt, designed for handgun carry or a wilderness instructors belt is the way to go. Doesn't matter what the holster is made of, kydex, concealex, cow leather, horse leather etc... so long as it holds the gun securely and presents the firearm for a good draw. You have to decide how you are going to carry. Inside the waistband, strong side, weak side/cross draw, shoulder, ankle, small of back.... then work from there
One thing that hasn't been mentioned which I will do now. Once you have the firearm, belt and holster - practice. WITH AN EMPTY GUN!!! No clip. No bullets. If you can afford it get a dummy barrel the can not chamber a live round and replace your working barrel with it. Practice drawing your firearm as well as reholstering it. Practice makes perfect. Always remember "slow is fast and fast is slow"

-Bill Liptak

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#151124 - 10/07/08 02:57 AM Re: Best Concealed Handgun [Re: colbyhouse]
Seeker890 Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 06/19/06
Posts: 93
Loc: Central Ohio
I have to say this is a very ambitious question. The best thing for a person new to shooting sports would be to try various pistols and calibers. Do you have friends that shoot? In such cases with new shooters, I would usually suggest starting with a 22 or a 38. However, you want to leap directly to conceal carry. This is tougher, since concealment is dependant a lot on your local climate / apparel you usually wear. One size does not fit all applications.

I carry a S&W MP9c in a soft side inside the waist Uncle Mikes holster. I have found the MP9c to be much more accurate and easy to shoot than I expected it to be when I purchased it. The holster doesn't move when the pistol is drawn. It seems to cling nicely to cloth to either side. It actually clips over the pants with a slight hook that catches under the belt, although I don't think it shifts enough to need to catch. The top of the holster is high enough to keep the top of the pistol from digging into my side. I took an advanced conceal carry class to upgrade my certificate with this assembly two months ago. I must have drawn the pistol 400x over the afternoon without any problems with the holster. I like carrying it in the 4:00 position. I can drive, sit, whatever, and it doesn't bother me. (I was lucky enough to have lost some weight lately, so I have some extra room in my pants)

The biggest problem when you start carrying is that you feel so obvious. That it is concealed to no one. A good instructor in your class can help you get past that issue.

It is important to get good instruction if you have limited shooting experience. Safety is paramount. To others as well as yourself. Drawing safely from a holster is something that must be practiced and practiced. You should start out drawing with an empty gun for a few hundred draws (and then maybe a few hundred more). You don't want to accidently shoot either yourself or anything around you while trying to draw your weapon under stress.

little things can be so important like when to release a safety, when to put your finger on the trigger, when to take your finger off the trigger. Muscle memory is extremely important under stress. You will do in real life what you practice if you practice enough.
_________________________
The Seeker

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