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#150578 - 10/01/08 01:05 PM Re: "The Office Pool" - "When will CC's be refused [Re: thseng]
Eugene Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 2822
I always understood that when you ran your debit card through signature based since it was going through the credit system you were covered. I recall banks advertising this and I have had to use it twice, one time my card was copied by a gas station the other was when when Yahoo cached it in their store processing system, both times the bank did treat it like a credit card and refunded my $.
I've been through both sides of the Visa agreement a few times, you know when you get those e-mails telling you to write 'see id' or somehting else silly on the back of your card to 'protect' you, respnding with the part of the visa agreement forbidding that helps.


Edited by Eugene (10/01/08 01:06 PM)

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#150596 - 10/01/08 04:03 PM Re: "The Office Pool" - "When will CC's be refused [Re: Eugene]
sodak Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 410
Debit cards can cause you to be cleaned out, as others have said. With credit cards, you can only be held responsible for the first $50 of fraud. I don't own any debit cards.

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#150602 - 10/01/08 05:00 PM Re: "The Office Pool" - "When will CC's be refused [Re: sodak]
Eugene Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 2822
Where are you getting this info, like I said the banks are saying use their debit card anywhere you can use a credit card and recieve the same protaction benefits and I have persnally received that protection twice.

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#150603 - 10/01/08 05:24 PM Re: "The Office Pool" - "When will CC's be refused [Re: Eugene]
Russ Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4827
Loc: SOCAL
My ATM/debit card has daily limits which should mitigate any losses should be it used by an unauthorized person. I only use it as an ATM card, for POS purchases I use cash or a credit card.

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#150609 - 10/01/08 06:16 PM Re: "The Office Pool" - "When will CC's be refused [Re: Russ]
LeeG Offline
Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 100
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
To start:
Federal Reserve Consumer Handbook

Credit holds on a Debit card block funds in your account until the hold is released (3-14 days). Funds on hold are unavailable to clear checks or ATM withdrawals.

Personally, I charge almost everything on my CC, but I almost never carry a balance from month to month.

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#150655 - 10/01/08 11:39 PM Re: "The Office Pool" - "When will CC's be refused [Re: Arney]
MartinFocazio Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 2148
Loc: Bucks County PA
Originally Posted By: Arney

Discover is unique since Discover Bank is part of Discover Financial Services, but I don't believe that it's owned by DFS. However, since pretty much all Discover Cards are issued by Discover Bank, if Discover Bank suddenly went belly up and totally stopped operations, then pretty much everyone's Discover Card in their wallets would presumably be useless at that point because there's no issuing bank.


Let's just say that if you looked into my work history, you would DISCOVER that I work for the company that plans, designs and runs the web site for a particular credit card company. This is a web site where you can DISCOVER things about a famous cash back program and you might even DISCOVER the company also has a bank. If you snoop around a bit on certain web sites where people Link In to other people, you might even DISCOVER that I was one of the folks who helped with the strategy and planning for that online bank as well as the credit card site and perhaps it would help you DISCOVER more about why I know so much about things in the credit card industry.

Just FYI.
DFS is publicly traded, plenty of info online about them.

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#150691 - 10/02/08 05:00 AM Re: "The Office Pool" - "When will CC's be refused [Re: dougwalkabout]
Art_in_FL Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2432
Originally Posted By: dougwalkabout

I had a credit card issued from one of the latter. Their game was blatantly obvious: get me in debt up to my eyeballs. Total SOBs. So I dropped the credit line from $15G to 500 bucks, just for laughs. They didn't like that, oh no. Now I use it for Internet purchases only, protecting my interests and theirs from fraud and the Russian mob. Instead of being grumpy and snarly, they should have offered me a corner office with perks. My fiscal conservatism was the right(eous) path. Hope these predatory types get a major spanking; they deserve every whack.


Credit card companies, when they first started out, made the majority of their money on interest. Now they make the majority on penalties and fees.

In common CC parlance those who pay off their CC bill every month are called "deadbeats". The card companies prefer "revolvers", people who roll over their debt each month and just make the minimum payments. Reason being that "deadbeats" can easily walk away. "Revolvers" remain captive and are typically digging themselves in deeper every month.

In many ways the behavior and business model of the CC companies is like a dairy farmer. Milking the captive animals, who will (if everything goes according to plan) never be free, over and over again. Taking a few cents of every transaction; substituting, at a price, for discipline and savings; and making a killing if their captives stumble.

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#150711 - 10/02/08 12:47 PM Re: "The Office Pool" - "When will CC's be refused [Re: Art_in_FL]
MartinFocazio Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 2148
Loc: Bucks County PA
Originally Posted By: Art_in_FL

Credit card companies, when they first started out, made the majority of their money on interest. Now they make the majority on penalties and fees.


I AM NOT DEFENDING THESE FEES, I AM DEFENDING THE PRACTICE OF POSTING FACTUAL, RESEARCHED INFORMATION. DON'T GET ALL CRANKY IF IT SEEMS I AM DEFENDING THESE FEES....

It's not true that the CC companies make "most of their money on fees" (and Revenue is NOT profit):

"According to a February report in the Wall Street Journal, revenue from fees increased from $17.1 billion in 2006 to $18.1 billion in 2007. "In 2003, the revenue from fees was $12.8 billion. That represents a 41% increase in fee revenue in just four years," says Bill Hardekopf,CEO of LowCards.com. "During this time of lower interest rates and more defaults, fees provide a steady income for issuers."

"Fees now account for 39% of the revenue for credit card issuers according to RK Hammer, a bank card advisory firm."


I suggest this site as well:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/credit/more/rise.html



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#150778 - 10/03/08 02:04 AM Re: "The Office Pool" - "When will CC's be refused [Re: MartinFocazio]
Art_in_FL Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2432
First, it is it is pretty well accepted that capitalized statements are seen as yelling. Put in bold print doubly so. By any measure a breach of etiquette.

Second, I worded the statement broadly on purpose. This isn't a forum on economics or accounting. But even broadly worded it is accurate.

"Fees now account for 39% of the revenue for credit card issuers according to RK Hammer, a bank card advisory firm."

Only 11% off on its face.

But what your missing here is that the penalties part I mentioned are not just fees. There are also interest penalties. In most cases the CC companies maintain the right to raise your interest rate to a default rate if you are late on any payment. Under universal default pricing this can apply even if the late payment is not on your account with them. In either case it is entirely possible to see your interest rate rise to over 30%. But none of this is listed as a fee because it is listed as a penalty. A semantic dodge by the CC companies and more of an issue than a simple late fee because a fee is a one-time charge while a drastic increase in interest rate is applied monthly.

Now nobody thinks that your payment history shouldn't be part of your credit rating and the interest charged. But the interest rate charged has to be kept in proportion to the actual risk and costs of maintaining the account. That is not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is abuse.

The CC companies are allowed by law to set their fees and interest at any rate they desire and both fees and penalties have become a major profit center. The companies are also allowed to alter their policies to increase the odds of a card user making a late payment so they can apply these fees and penalties. Practices like setting the due date on a Sunday or holiday are pretty much the norm now. And they are a fine, but unscrupulous, way of making sure you will get more people to miss it so you can make more profit by laying on fees and penalties. Delaying the clearance of cheques or late postings of payments are also common but clearly, IMO, unethical practices.

Used to be, for the most part, the interests of both those offering credit and those using credit were aligned. The banker wanted you to know and understand the rules and they made their money from you complying with these established rules. There was no desire for the credit holder fail.

I have and keep several credit cards. But dealing with them is like dealing with a rabid dog. You always keep your eyes on what is going on and after handing over funds you count your fingers.

Of all the ways to use credit, discounting payday and title loans or Big Al and his crew of thugs down the block, credit cards are the most problematic. Made worse because they have a financial interest in you failing.



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#150785 - 10/03/08 03:09 AM Re: "The Office Pool" - "When will CC's be refused [Re: Art_in_FL]
BobS Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 924
Loc: Toledo Ohio
After my divorce I no longer have a CC. I donít travel by plane, rent a car or hotel ahead of time.

I live quite well without them.
_________________________



You can run, but you'll only die tired.


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