OK, maybe I should not be posting here, but I don't know where else I can find a group of people who might be able to provide some input here.

In the grand history of the world, the horse as a work animal has long been a staple of civilizations large and small. Few animals elicit such an emotional attachment as a horse.

Almost as a joke, I suggested recently that a good business to go into would be horse-drawn delivery services, and for fun, I had a look at what modern horse-drawn carts look like.

Here are some examples of what I found:





Interesting, in that the construction is still
Wood, exceedingly heavy and styled exactly as virtually every other wagon of it's kind.

I did some further research into the modern state of affairs for local delivery vehicles, looking at things like the Dodge Sprinter and the funn stuff they did over at Auto Week.

Shifting gears, as it were, I then took a look at some of the technology used in human powered surreys as well as Cargo Trikes:


Suffice it to say that I did a lot of digging, and after a while, I was reminded of a pretty "old fashioned" industry that was shaken up when modern materials and construction techniques came up with a new way of doing an old thing:



As far as I can tell, there's nothing out there that's really taking advantage of modern materials like high-strength aluminum alloys, regenerative braking/electric boost system (makes your horse last longer!), open-cell polymers and other similar technologies. A modern float wagon, built with an aluminum frame and constructed with road wheels similar to those used on racing bicycles would weigh in at 1/3 that of a similarly constructed wood wagon, without loss of carrying capacity or basic durability. What's more, adding an axle electric boost/brake would also allow the top of the wagon to be covered in solar cells to reduce the power drain of the wagon's on-board electrics.

For some reason, I see the increasing "localization" of the economy and a certain "greening" movement as a possibility for the novelty of a return, in high-tech form, of the horse-drawn delivery wagon. Maybe I'm nuts, maybe not, but imagine the press a company like Whole Foods could get if it did local deliveries by horse - and fed the horses right there at the store with a mix of leftover greens and such and regular horse feed.

Have i blown a neuron here?

The horse was replaced because it was not able to deliver the workload of newer delivery technology.

Also it eats and gets rid of that food in a most unpleasant way.

Having been to an island several times that has no autos, (except one ambulance) even UPS uses a horse drawn wagon I can attest to the unpleasant remains in the streets, and the slow pace of the animals. And to the support network needed to care for and clean up after them.

I would bet that the support network (stalls, food delivery, doctors, and on & on) would far exceed that of even a small delivery truck (a pickup truck as small as it is could do what a horse can)


Romance gives us a vision of a horse drawn wagon delivering goods to people in a personal and less fast passed life, but it’s a thing of the past for a good part of the world.


I would guess that the present made horse drawn wagons look like those of years past is because the technology of a horse is from years past and looked at as a novelty or reminder of what was. No need to update, if you update, buy a truck and do more work with less upkeep then a horse needs.

Think of the Amish in PA. They have some very interesting delivery wagons.

Better start looking at the way they power tools and live without electricity.

Martin,

You haven't completely blown a fuse, but I think horse-drawn wagon won't be the answer. The input/output problems are too much of an issue in modern cities. Your idea of a high-tech wagon is intreuging and I think construction would pretty straigh-forward.

Looking at human-powered vehicles seem to me to be a much better solution. While in China I watch in amazement as people bicycled past carrying things like five medium pigs or a large fridge.

Amazing Cargo Bikes

The Buscycle

The downside is a lot of cities have rules against such devices, especially home-built ones. They fear someone might get hurt by them. I suspect the same thing would apply to wagons.

-Blast

I think I am pondering the fact that
a) There's plenty of horses in NYC, the poop problem, while predictable, is manageable.
b) $9.00 a gallon gas will change a lot of things.

Blast, if you've ever been to Long Beach Island in NJ there are a bunch of places there that rent pedal-powered cars. Normally they fit four people, who each have a set of pedals to power it. We used to rent them all the time (it was a fun way to get around town, but quite a bit of work since they don't have adjustable gears).

No need to limit oneself to mere transportation from point A to B. Behold, the conference bike:

http://www.conferencebike.com/

Horses are bulky, temperamental bordering on psychotic, and primarily useful currently as components for high end dog food. I don't like horses. I had to hold horses while the old man did unspeakable things to them. The horses in turn attempted to do unspeakable things to me. Don't like horses. The cowboy carried a handgun, I would assert, so that he could shoot the horse on which he was mounted when it started acting psychotic. Don't like 'em.
Dogs, on the other hand, are useful critters, capable of hauling carts.
The food and poo issues are easier to manage. Dog cartage can use sidewalks rather than roadways.

Goats, too.

Horses are over-rated. Tho I would admit that the Preakness would lose something if the contestants were goats hauling sulkies.

Wagon based, I'm not sure. But a single dispatch rider on horseback, with good saddle bags and maybe a backpack, could put bike messengers to shame in terms of payload. Not sure if it would be faster, but it might be faster for those midsized loads than a car based courier would be in certain municipal areas.

My $0.02: If something like this were to thrive, it would be because your potential customers liked the idea of having something delivered to them via this nostalgic vision and would pay a premium for it. Though it might be built of the lightest newest materials, it would still have to look like an old milk wagon (or whatever example you choose).

I can't imagine that even at $9.00 a gallon, a horse drawn cart would be more cost effective than a modern delivery van.

Each requires a person to operate it and workers are expensive. One reason modern vehicles make sense is because they save lots of manpower.

Yesterday, in the WSJ, I read a story about the effect of carbon taxes and how Norwegians already pay around $10/gallon and they are driving more than ever.

Actually, a bike equipped right can carry and haul easily 100lbs of payload in addition to the rider and 100 miles in a day for a person who is in shape is not unrealistic by any means. People are endurance work horses when in shape, horses peter out pretty quickly. Now if you move the terrain covered from roads (even gravel) to the wild expanse I think a horse would win out over a bicycle.

Europe has been dealing with high fuel prices much longer then we have in The USA (I read someplace England imposes a tax of almost $5.00 on each gal of gasoline) look to Europe to see a glimpse of where the USA may go for its transportation needs. I don’t see horses as a major part of European travel & transportation life.

Other then mass transit, mass transit will not work for most of the USA.

My bet is we'd see the roads full of Tuk Tuk's before horse carriages, which I think would be awesome. That new convertible looks very neat.

http://www.tuktuknorthamerica.com/

There aren't nearly as many horses in New York as there used to be, and there didn't used to be as many as there are now cars. According to this site the average life span of a horse in New York was only 2 1/2 years. During which time it produced 24 pounds of manure a day. Multiplied by 100,000-200,000 horses and you have enough manure to choke the life out of any city. Even before the advent of the internal combustion engine and automobiles, the horse was being replaced by steam powered trolley's in the cities and trains outside of them. A large city during the turn of the city was a very health place to live.

As much as I like horses, as a wide spread transportation system, their time has past. Leave them where they're at as animals that give us pleasure and occasionally do work that can't be done in any other way.

As urban transport in today's environment, I cannot see horses replacing motor vehicles. However, if the urban environment changes, perhaps it could be of use. I think the first thing that would need to change is the use of the motor vehicle. Gas is expensive, but we are still using our cars and other vehicles. If it is cheap enough for us to drive our cars and trucks, then it is cheap enough to use motor vehicles as transports in commerce. When and if the costs of driving cars and trucks becomes prohibitive, then horse drawn transport might be an alternative for local commerce. I don't horses would be used for long distance transport. All that said, I think battery technology will be such that the use vehicles powered by only electric motors will be practicable, and horses will not be used.

I think horses might be used as transport in more rural situations, where the by-products can be put to use as fertilizer, is more practical.

24 pounds, that a lot of s*it.


Like I said above I have been to Mackinaw Island several times, no autos allowed there. Lots of horse sh*t all over, along with pee running down the streets everyplace. It’s not a pleasant smell. And they have a lot of people running around cleaning it up all day, and there is still a lot of it there. You have to watch where you step. I can’t imagine what it would be like in a large city where you know it would not be diligently cleaned up.

In mine country (the Netherlands), we have loads of measures to reduce pollution and driving:
- High taxes on fuel.
- Road Taxes (heavier and dirtier = pay more)
- Plans of introducing a system that charges people per km, instead of a fixed road tax. The more you drive, the more you pay.
- High taxes on new cars.
- Higher taxes on new polluting cars and less tax on economic cars.

It also has lots of things to stimulate other form of transport.
- pretty much all bosses will either give a card for public transport for commuting or pay a max of 0.19 cent per KM.
- bicycles lanes everywhere
- bicycles parking space also everywhere
- subsidized public transport
- public transport will even stop in very small villages.
- You can buy a bicycle using your left over vacation days, without paying tax

Bicycles are much more popular here, kids, teens, adults, they all cycle and you many mother have cargo bicycles, trailers, etc. to carry the childes to school.

As a member of the American driving Society and Carriage collectors association I have a different view.
Let us first dispense with the notion that vehicles drawn by draft animals are some unsophisticated assemblage of obsolete materials. My modest collection's senior vehicle is a Victorian hansom cab used in the old Basil Rathbone movies,with an english maker's plaque dating it to 1891.I bought it when the studios foolishly auctioned off a large portion of their materials. Needless to say, my cab is still going strong into it's second century. How many Checker Cabs are still operating in NYC? How many have recouped their purchase price 4 times over renting it out to those same studios?
Carriages used woods of differing species in remarkable ways; some for rot resistance in wet climes, flexible shafts to take on the torque of a vehicle, wheels with spokes at different angles to take the strain of local terrain conditions.And finally in my brief comments; wood, though our world stocks are abused, is a renewable resource with far less environmental harm than your titanium cooksets and plastic impact bumpers on cars.
Indeed, one of the reasons my hobby even survived was a minor event called WW2. Many people throughout the UK found themselves without petrol for vehicles. Many a rural family dusted off grandfather's jaunting cart, hooked up the welsh,fell or hackney pony and had viable transport. It was no accident de Havilland came up with a rather remarkable aircraft called the Mosquito tapping into the UK's carriage, furniture and cabinet guilds ready workforce.But then the agility of the Mossy descended from rugged vehicles of suprising agility to first time viewers of a cross country competition at speed.Agile/ an english horseman who wrote of horse communication told of driving a delivery wagon on a rural road. One new horse, paired with a older stablemate bolted at site of a huge american convoy. the then young boy lost teh reins and could only hold on. the older horse bit and kicked the younger horse into a series of left and right hand moves to swerve around a mile long stretch of trucks and tanks before coming to a safe stops. Again, so much for clumsyness of design.
I would direct naysayers of effective draft animal use to the association of traditional timbermen who skid logs out by horse, the Draft Horse Journal and the many mounted police units around the country.
I am always amazed how people, sitting on top of the accumulated riches of culture, medicine and technologic advance have utterly no clue how those amenities were acquired, and how foolishly we are forgetting the tools used.
Everybody check your PSKs for those disposable lighters now, no obscolete foolishness like metal matches, wooden matches or fire pistons allowed. We are modern after all.

b) That's why it's going down in price... They realized the impact would be a tid-bit worse than originally expected ha, ha. no

Horses are a fun, comfortable way to travel. Saddle horses, pack mules and draft horses are able to reach areas that even four wheelers and dirt bikes have trouble. A policeman on horse back is both an visible symbol of authority and an easily approachable one (horses have fuzzy faces kids love to pet). Policemen on horse back, shoulder to shoulder with shields and batons are about as effective a tool against rioters as is available. The physical effect of a mounted, armed man on a man on foot has not diminished with time.

However, I don't think that horses can be a viable replacement for the widespread use of gasoline or electric powered vehicles, either in urban areas. The month of September was the first time in more that 15 years that new car sales in the United States dropped below 1 million(according the the Korea Herald).
-Grain stores for a million horses would a major health hazard in terms of attracting rodents and insects.
-1 million horses produce a vast amount of manure.
-Horses require up keep and training most Americans don't have and have no interest to invest in. The Walmart and Gap crowd simply aren't going to get involved in horse transport.
-Over long distances horses don't compare in speed to any form of public conveyance. Over short, urban distances a whole new infrastructure would have to be built to accommodate horses and would concentrate the problems that horses present.

Without a major energy crunch and a massive drop in population, I don't see horses ever replacing more modern locomotion for most purposes.

As does the federal government, but we have learned to cope with it.

Well nobody enjoys to pay tax, but it really depends on how you look at it. Yes we pay a lot of taxes, but we also get many benefits, like good subsidized public transport, good and affordable education, good affordable health care, good social security, a well build and maintained infrastructure, etc. Yes, i don't like to pay tax, but i do like the benefits. So does most Europeans, so we just stick to it. I guess it's just the opposite in the US, where people prefer low taxes and less benefits form taxed payed measures. Neither is right or wrong.

One can also make a good case that inflation is itself a tax. (In which case, Izzy, that whirring noise may well be tax-fleeing ancestors spinning in their graves.)

Bernanke clearly admits this when asked about increasing the money supply by printing U.S. dollars (by the trillions? we're not sure because the Federal Reserve no longer publishes "M3" data on the amount of cash in circulation).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4yBrxmEOkY

I'm thinking bicycle transport may be more viable than horse-based urban delivery, given the most recent news from Washington.

On the lighter side, why stop at delivery functions? Behold, the couch bike:

http://www.bikeforest.com/cb/

The taxi rank (automobiles) is still at the same location 120 years later.

Of course there were still steam trains and electric trams around in these days, plus there was the freedom as a pedestrian to walk down the middle of the street without the fear of being run over.

I say bring back the horse. (the horse sh*t will be good for your garden rubarb anyway)

It would also stop the equivalent of 150 Boeing 747s crashes worth of death and destruction every year in the US as well.

Clop Clop Clop Clop Clop Clop Clop

Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang

Clop Clop Clop Clop Clop Clop Clop


A gang member On a horse, doing a drive-by shooting…

If horses come back, I'm getting into vermiculture in a big way.

Amish drive-by.

Those vehicles are from Left to right a Broughum ( pronounced broom),Phaeton and Hansom Cab. The Brougham was the limousine of it's day, the phaeton convertible touring and no lady would ever ride alone in a Hansom.
Notice the trees. Every mature tree in the urban world was planted not for aesthetics, but as practical shade for the many horses. The many old fountains were also practical watering stations.
Glass collectors sometimes find very long necked glasses mistaken for laboratory equipment.These were to serve drinks to the 'whips' who often remained seated on very high seats and couldn't reach down. Those long carriage whips were so expertly handled a whip could kill flies on his horse's backs, or deliver a suprise to street urchins big and small.
The occupants; both whip and passengers were equippped with 'rugs' heavy woolen blankets decorously covering the lower limbs unless really inclement weather came on,pocketknives, oftentimes small defensive handguns- a use considered a LIBERAL political choice then, water or liquor flasks and a spare lantern in the boot along with repair tools in case of mechanical failure.
Notice lastly, those men standing by the vehicles area all professionals; coachmen and footmen. There was a gentility and code in those poorly regulated streets. No texting, unless from portable writing desks a hurried letter to be dispatched by the footboy via a commerical vehicle, music blaring from the hand blown and beveled glass( untinted, but fitted with curtains for privacy)

Well said. Where Social Security & medical care are concerned, I figure I can do a better job looking out for my interests than the government. None of my retirement plans figure on SS being there when I reach retirement age. Either that or the age I can start drawing it will have been pushed back to the day after I've passed away.

Many years ago, someone handed me an OLD NY Times news clipping about the horse waste problem in Manhattan, and that if something wasn't done, there would be something like 12" of "horse exhaust" on the street. Remember, one of the big pruposes of the NY and North Shore Railroad (Now the LIRR Pt Washington branch) was to bring the manure to Little neck bay, and dump it. You know that marshy area north of Northern (and heck, part of what is south.. All horse manure

Besides which, no government anywhere has been able to demonstrate that they can deliver better services more efficiently than free enterprise is able to do. The economic laws of supply and demand function best when government interferes the least. Our present situation is a perfect example of government meddling ruining an industry.

Governments don't have to compete, don't have shareholders, and don't have to provide any quality.

I could go on, but this conversation will only sour.