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#150205 - 09/26/08 11:41 PM Re: News Reporter - Cooking w/o Electric [Re: JohnE]
BobS Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 924
Loc: Toledo Ohio
Originally Posted By: JohnE
Bob,

I'm curious, you refer to "my money" quite frequently, are you paying some sort of fee to the people affected by natural disasters that I'm not aware of?
John E


Yes it's called taxes.

A great number of the people living stupidly below sea level next to the ocean in a hurricane zone donít have flood coverage, why have it when the government comes in and to their rescue and rebuilds for them? Tax Money is what pays for this and the rebuild.


I think we do now and will continue to disagree on this, and to continue it will swing it into a political debate on taxes and how the government sees fit to always want more tax money and then to spend it in ways I donít agree with. There are a great many points I could bring up, but it would not sway those on either side of the debate. Iím going to let it go at that and not keep going beyond this post.
_________________________



You can run, but you'll only die tired.


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#150232 - 09/27/08 11:16 AM Re: News Reporter - Cooking w/o Electric [Re: BobS]
MartinFocazio Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 2148
Loc: Bucks County PA
Originally Posted By: BobS
Originally Posted By: JohnE
Bob,

I'm curious, you refer to "my money" quite frequently, are you paying some sort of fee to the people affected by natural disasters that I'm not aware of?
John E


Yes it's called taxes.

A great number of the people living stupidly below sea level next to the ocean in a hurricane zone donít have flood coverage, why have it when the government comes in and to their rescue and rebuilds for them? Tax Money is what pays for this and the rebuild.


Ah...the classic "There are only two kinds of money, my money and your money" line of reasoning, as espoused by certain economists. There's no "we" in that thinking.

So...how do you feel about the 10 billion dollars we spend in Iraq a month? How about the billion dollars we just spent in Georgia (the country, not the state) to rebuild it? How about the billions we send to Israel? What about the proposed 700 Billion to Wall Street? How about the Trillions of dollars for Medicare? What about Social Security? Food Stamps? You ever been poor? Ever needed help? I have. I know what happens when the Stuff hits the fan, I've been down. I know why we have taxes. I've spent your tax money in the past. I know people who are spending our tax money now to feed their kids. I personally spent some of your tax money on a generator for the firehouse (FEMA grant), a Firehouse that will NEVER send a fire truck to your house (unless you happen to live here in Bucks County in our district). It's OUR money when it's taxes, and that's a special class of money.

Yeah, I don't like to see tax money wasted, but you have to have some perspective. Unless you want a nation where you have to ask the authorities where you're allowed to live, unless you want a nation that requires a person to demonstrate some non-financial qualifications to the government in order to qualify for home ownership (like the Nazi's did), you're going to have people who make bad decisions and you can let them die or you can help them out. I'll just hammer home one point - I think living in New Orleans is dumb, I really do, and I think that if you don't have an emergency plan that includes evacuation, you're a fool (sorry Blast, I read your posts, I think you took an unnecessary risk and you were lucky). I also think that a civilized society does not abandon those who make mistakes, it does not punish mistakes, it goes with pride and honor to help those in need - and does not judge.

I'm not a Christian by any means, but there are some great lines written in the bible on the subject of helping the poor and downtrodden, and also on the matter of pride. "No casting of stones etc." is one of those concepts that is damn near impossible to live, especially when you want to smack the person you're helping in the face for being such and idiot. But you don't. You go above that. You suck it up, take the cost, and you work to educate them to help them not get into the situation again. That's what a civilized man does.


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#150233 - 09/27/08 11:50 AM Re: News Reporter - Cooking w/o Electric [Re: MartinFocazio]
bws48 Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/18/07
Posts: 830
Loc: Anne Arundel County, Maryland
Martin;
+1 and well said.
I don't want to go too far off into political/economic theory etc., but IMO government and taxes are a form of "mandatory insurance" (like car insurance in most places) that I must pay for to have the benefits and privileges of living where we do. Like all insurance, we hope we don't need it, but when we need it, we really need it. Small example: last week my blood sugar crashed and I woke up with 6 guys and gals from the local fire dept and rescue squad standing around me and an IV in my arm. I pay for that protection in my taxes.

We can argue about how the powers that be may allocate the funds: that is why we vote. But I don't ever think that we can do without this "insurance" and abandon our fellow policy holders (citizens).
_________________________
"Better is the enemy of good enough."

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#150236 - 09/27/08 12:22 PM Re: News Reporter - Cooking w/o Electric [Re: JohnE]
Eric Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/09/06
Posts: 323
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: JohnE
Bob,

I'm curious, you refer to "my money" quite frequently, are you paying some sort of fee to the people affected by natural disasters that I'm not aware of?

What is government's role if not to attempt to provide for it's citizens?

....

Not trying to pick a fight, I just keep seeing the same responses and it makes me curious.

John E


Just a couple of quick points - Gov't money (all types) is "our money" so by extension at least some of it can be considered "my money". Not everyone agrees with how it is spent but that goes with the territory. I agree that everyone should help each other in times of trouble but it does go a bit against the grain to help the same people for the same avoidable things time and time again. Or to borrow someone else's turn of phrase, some of us seem to keep paying "insurance premiums" while other keep turning in "claims".

What is government's role? This is an on going debate in lots of countries around the world and there are no universal answers to the question. In the US the most applicable answer is drawn from our constitution but even this is being debated regularly.

From Article IV, section 4: The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

From the Preamble: We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

My personal view is that this does not include "provide for it's citizens". I think there is a considerable distance from promoting to providing but there is lots of room for discussion in those two clauses and as I said earlier, this is only applicable in the US. Other countries are working from different outlines.

- Eric
"hoping to add value while not degenerating to a political discussion"
_________________________
You are never beaten until you admit it. - - General George S. Patton


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#150237 - 09/27/08 02:34 PM Re: News Reporter - Cooking w/o Electric [Re: MartinFocazio]
BobS Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 924
Loc: Toledo Ohio
Originally Posted By: martinfocazio



Ah...the classic "There are only two kinds of money, my money and your money" line of reasoning, as espoused by certain economists. There's no "we" in that thinking.

So...how do you feel about the 10 billion dollars we spend in Iraq a month? How about the billion dollars we just spent in Georgia (the country, not the state) to rebuild it? How about the billions we send to Israel? What about the proposed 700 Billion to Wall Street? How about the Trillions of dollars for Medicare? What about Social Security? Food Stamps? You ever been poor? Ever needed help? I have. I know what happens when the Stuff hits the fan, I've been down. I know why we have taxes. I've spent your tax money in the past. I know people who are spending our tax money now to feed their kids. I personally spent some of your tax money on a generator for the firehouse (FEMA grant), a Firehouse that will NEVER send a fire truck to your house (unless you happen to live here in Bucks County in our district). It's OUR money when it's taxes, and that's a special class of money.

Yeah, I don't like to see tax money wasted, but you have to have some perspective. Unless you want a nation where you have to ask the authorities where you're allowed to live, unless you want a nation that requires a person to demonstrate some non-financial qualifications to the government in order to qualify for home ownership (like the Nazi's did), you're going to have people who make bad decisions and you can let them die or you can help them out. I'll just hammer home one point - I think living in New Orleans is dumb, I really do, and I think that if you don't have an emergency plan that includes evacuation, you're a fool (sorry Blast, I read your posts, I think you took an unnecessary risk and you were lucky). I also think that a civilized society does not abandon those who make mistakes, it does not punish mistakes, it goes with pride and honor to help those in need - and does not judge.

I'm not a Christian by any means, but there are some great lines written in the bible on the subject of helping the poor and downtrodden, and also on the matter of pride. "No casting of stones etc." is one of those concepts that is damn near impossible to live, especially when you want to smack the person you're helping in the face for being such and idiot. But you don't. You go above that. You suck it up, take the cost, and you work to educate them to help them not get into the situation again. That's what a civilized man does.


I said we would and do disagree on this and it would swing into a political debate if it kept going. This is why I said I was going to let it go at that.


But itís interesting that we are not supposed to go political and a moderator is the one that then took it to a political debate bringing Iraq and the war on terrorism into it, the 700-billion bailout, the money we send to Israel, the money we sent to Georgia, The Bible, and several other things brought up that are political in nature and require a politically based response. I thought we were not allowed? (In the past I have had my post deleted for touching on political things, and seen statements to stop a thread direction that was starting to go a bit political.)

Why the double standard?

Iím not trying to give you a hard time, but it looks like a sliding set of rules because I donít think the same way as you. You seem to think my post look simple minded. And they do without further deeper thoughts being posted, but that requires a much deeper jump into a political debate. It will get my post deleted and build animosity for going to this depth and it will do no good for anyone. This is why I said I was going to let that political debate as it applied to my posting stop there, and I have. This post is just me trying to understand the rules and to whom they apply and donít apply to?

Please feel free to delete this if you feel the need to, but remember above you called me out to respond by asking for my opinion on several political based things in your post. Iím still not going to go political, the end result of doing so is deleted post because as I stated above we disagree and also political points are not the point of this BBS. Iím trying to respect this.




_________________________



You can run, but you'll only die tired.


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#150247 - 09/27/08 05:51 PM Re: News Reporter - Cooking w/o Electric [Re: MartinFocazio]
Blast Offline
INTERCEPTOR
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3561
Loc: Spring, Texas
Quote:
and I think that if you don't have an emergency plan that includes evacuation, you're a fool (sorry Blast, I read your posts, I think you took an unnecessary risk and you were lucky).


Actually, I live in a part of town where the people in charged of Houston asked that we not evacuate. The evacuations of Hurricane Rita taught Houston that those along the coast need to "run from the water", but those inland need to "hide from th wind". "Run from the water/hide from the wind" is the actual name of Houston's hurricane plan. I'm 72 miles inland. If I should have bugged out then it means the other 4,000,000 people between me and the coast should have also left. We saw what happens when that is tried back in Rita.

So anyway, I understand your thoughts but I don't think you have all the information. Now, if a cat.4 hurricane was coming I'd have been on the road bugging out like a cat with it's tail on fire.

-Blast
_________________________
Blogging the Borderlands
Wild Edibles Blog
I miss OBG.

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#150283 - 09/28/08 02:14 AM Re: News Reporter - Cooking w/o Electric [Re: MartinFocazio]
AROTC Offline
Addict

Registered: 05/06/04
Posts: 604
Loc: Manhattan
Kind of sort of back to the original topic. Here in Korea I've been cooking on an electric hot plate. Its pretty terrible at its job. It has a temperature control on the front which only seems to regulate how quickly it cycles between very hot and off. The problem with that becomes readily apparent when you try to cook an omelet or fry bacon on low heat. However, I just noticed the Koreans have a much better solution: a gas hot plate. Its pretty much a camp stove, except they use them for everyday cooking. Its also bulkier than all except for the big coleman stoves. Its also relatively flatter, heavier and thus more stable then most camp stoves. As soon as I get a chance to buy one, I think I'm going to relieve my electric hotplate of duty, except for boiling water and other sledge hammer cooking jobs.

Of course the added benefit is that if the power goes off for an extended period, I could still cook. Does anyone know if they're available in the states? They might be a good option for people who want to be ready for power outages, but aren't into camping.
_________________________
A gentleman should always be able to break his fast in the manner of a gentleman where so ever he may find himself.--Good Omens

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#150288 - 09/28/08 04:50 AM Re: News Reporter - Cooking w/o Electric [Re: Blast]
James_Van_Artsdalen Offline
Addict

Registered: 09/13/07
Posts: 449
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: Blast
Quote:
and I think that if you don't have an emergency plan that includes evacuation, you're a fool (sorry Blast, I read your posts, I think you took an unnecessary risk and you were lucky).

... Now, if a cat.4 hurricane was coming I'd have been on the road bugging out like a cat with it's tail on fire.

Every hurricane plan needs to a path and *especially* a go/no-go time, but that doesn't mean you evacuate every time. Evacuations are hazardous too.

I grew up about 400 *feet* inland on Galveston Bay and the entire time I lived there we never evacuated after Hurricane Carla - because it was never necessary, in that house, based on tides, storm surge estimates, etc. My mom grew up on a farm without electricity or running water and we were campers, so we just camped for a couple of weeks. The hazards of staying are greatly overstated by those unfamiliar with the problem...

Depending on your tree situation I doubt it's necessary for you to leave for a Cat 4 though it may be a lot more convenient than waiting a few weeks for air conditioning to return...

PS. We would have left for Ike no doubt - the storm surge forecast called for as much as 2 feet of water in that house (didn't even come close, but you don't know that ahead of time). Our go-no-go point would have been Wednesday morning.

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#150349 - 09/29/08 01:52 PM Re: News Reporter - Cooking w/o Electric [Re: BobS]
MartinFocazio Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 2148
Loc: Bucks County PA
Yeah, I broke the rules. Fire me or cut my salary in half. A little tired of keeping the gloves on.


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#150368 - 09/29/08 04:42 PM Re: News Reporter - Cooking w/o Electric [Re: MartinFocazio]
wildman800 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2816
Loc: La-USA
Martin,

Being able to step in ans say what others can't, by the rules, is one of the few perks that you have earned/gotten through your efforts.

For all that you do, BZ!!
_________________________
QMC, USCG (Ret)
The best luck is what you make yourself!

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