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#14512 - 04/04/03 02:42 AM 93 yrs.

You mean there've been changes in firearms since 1911? <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

#14513 - 04/04/03 02:55 AM Re: Preparedness starts with a firearm

I'm definitely with you on this. I was just acknowledging that minime might have a point.

Personally I'm a New Detonics Combatmaster in .45 type of guy. And the NRA, GOA, and JPFO all get as much $$$ as I can afford.


#14514 - 04/04/03 03:31 AM Powerful, concealed 21st Century firearm

Okay guys, I'm carrying 9mm Speer Gold Dot 124 grain +P hollow point. Should be equal or better one shot stops compared to a .45 ACP round, no matter what Colonel Cooper may say otherwise. Rather have 13 rounds of stopping power that fits in my pocket. Those old tests proving .45 stopping power were done using cows. Don't see many cows in the city - prefer gelatin tests and modern science. Regards, Keys

Edited by KeysBear (04/04/03 03:33 AM)

#14515 - 04/04/03 03:59 AM Re: Powerful, concealed 21st Century firearm

'Fraid not, dude...

When it comes to one stop shots, the .45 still rules! I suggest we head on over to Packing.org and discuss it there. That way we don't bore all these guys or interrupt their conversations about snare wires and survival saws <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

#14516 - 04/04/03 05:15 AM I carry a glock!!
gitarmac Offline

Registered: 03/18/03
Posts: 31
Sometimes, sometimes I carry a small 38 special or my .22mag mini-revolver. My parents gave me my first gun when my husband went to Japan on deployment. Brandishing a firearm prevented my from harm 2 times (both at my home). Back then you didn't need permission to exercise the RKBA. When I was a little girl my mom always had her .22 revolver in her tackle box when we went fishing. She said it was for snakes. Whatever. We fished whereever we wanted and never had a problem with snakes, including the 2 legged kind.
The thought of not have a firearm of some sort on the nightstand is such a forgien concept. I have a "permit" to carry my gun but there are so many forbidden places it's almost not worth the problem. I do always carry a nice folder, it's better than fingernails.

#14517 - 04/04/03 08:53 AM Re: Powerful, concealed 21st Century firearm
frenchy Offline

Registered: 12/18/02
Posts: 1320
Loc: France
Yeah, do that, go to another forum !!!
So I won't be drooling from envy, reading your posts about .45 vs 9mm ....
<img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In FRANCE, there is no RKBA.
You can get a "possession authorization" to buy a handgun for sporting or defensive reasons : I mean not to defend your life, but only to defend your cash-register (and it rather be a BIG cash register !), if your are a jeweller, for instance...

As a member of a shooting club (+ other requirements), I was able to ask for possession permits, in order to buy my .45 ACP (Colt serie 80) and .357 (french Manurhin MR73).
I can't "carry" them. I can only transport them in a bag, dis-assembled (or locked), from my house to the shooting range.

So there is no way a gun will be part of any survival kit, here in France ....


P.S.: were I not a "law abiding" citizen, I guess I could go in some "hot" suburbs and buy AK47s and RPG launchers, without asking for any permits .... <img src="images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
But anyway, how do you store a RPG in a PSK ... ??????.... <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

#14518 - 04/04/03 09:22 AM Re: Powerful, concealed 21st Century firearm

Sorry Frenchy,
Didn't mean to make you drool. Packing is good - deeply sorry that you can't.
In my experience - debating with big bore advocates is a waste of time - you're entitled to your opinion. IMO there is little % difference in stopping power between my 9mm +P load and your .45 ACP, and hardly enough to justify the extra weight or smaller magazine capacity. I'll throw you a little writings of Chuck Hawks, and leave it at that:
"The stopping power of any handgun bullet turns out to be a function of its ability to disrupt vital bodily functions, not the diameter or weight or initial shape of the bullet that strikes the victim. For example, the difference in the size of the entrance hole made by a .451" bullet compared to that made by a .355" bullet in an elastic (semi-self sealing) material like skin turns out to be largely irrelevant to stopping power. The idea (which I have heard expressed) that a bigger bullet makes a bigger hole to "bleed out" a man or an animal is faintly ridiculous.
The principle method of both stopping and killing with any firearm, whether rifle or pistol or shotgun, is the disruption of vital bodily functions. Fatally damage any animal's heart, liver, lungs, or central nervous system (including Homo sapiens) and it is not going to live long enough to bleed out. Fail to put your bullet in a vital spot and you are very likely to have a problem with a man or an animal. That is not to say that some bullet placements might not eventually cause death by loss of blood, or infection, or some other mechanism, but that is never the goal of any hunter OR gunfighter who wants an immediate one shot stop.
Readers who have done some deer hunting have probably observed that often the entrance wound from a modern expanding rifle bullet (like a 100 grain .243, 130 grain .270, or 150 grain .308) seems minimal, with almost no external blood loss at all. In addition, there may be no exit wound--the bullet is often found just under the hide on the off side. But if the shot was true the deer's lungs probably look like they went through a blender, and the animal was down in seconds. That is an illustration of nearly perfect stopping power and it has little or nothing to do with the relatively small caliber of the bullet involved.
Modern big bore advocates, following in the footsteps of Jeff Cooper (who I respect greatly and regard as a fine and very persuasive writer), will claim that the example cited in the paragraph above and witnessed by countless tens of thousands of deer hunters does not apply at typical handgun bullet impact velocities. They argue that below some magic impact velocity (usually about 2000 fps) the temporary stretch cavity that contributes so much to the lethality of rifle bullets like those in the example above ceases to exist. These writers continue to ignore any facts contrary to their preconceptions." I didn't feel like being dumped on by .45 ACP superiorists today. Shall we agree to disagree? Regards, Keys

Edited by KeysBear (04/04/03 09:33 AM)

#14519 - 04/04/03 02:41 PM Re: A Fundamental Question

As I recall ( and I wan't taking notes), it was typical airline security - metal detector and tray for pocket change. I pulled my keys and SA Classic (iddy bitty blade and small scissors) out and passed it through outside the MD and walked through, picking up my stuff. I entered two Congressional Buildings and the LOC. my daughter got on a White House tour, and I understand the security there was VERY tight.

#14520 - 04/04/03 02:52 PM Re: Powerful, concealed 21st Century firearm

Actually, we don't even have to agree to disagree. My carry gun is a .380. I've always valued accuracy over "stopping power." Even when I hunt, I use the lightest slug I can find and count on the flatter trajectory and greater energy to do the job. So far so good. That's also why I like .357 Sig, its a relatively light, hot bullet.

But the .45 also has its place. If I'm trying to shoot somebody in the dark and I can't aim accurately, then I hope its a .45 that I've got in my hand!! This also makes it a great self-defense round for someone who doesn't want to spend hours at IDPA practicing shot placement in tactical situations. Your original statement was that a 9mm has as much "stopping power" as a .45. The statistics do not bear that out. I have the data in a spreadsheet if you'd like me to send it to you. Now, there are plenty of enthusiast out there that poo poo "stopping power" statistics. If you're one of them, that's fine. But be careful how you use the term, nowadays it means something very specific among the experts/enthusiasts.

#14521 - 04/04/03 02:57 PM Re: A Fundamental Question

Adapting to the "present", among other things, means working for reasonable laws and regulations within our existing Constitutonal framework, which, all things considered, is pretty good. Reviewing this thread, I seem to hear a lot of "politician bashing - stupid, inept, etc." Well, the cure for than lies at the ballot box, and/or in the judicial system. Over time, this country has been a pendulum with respect to citizen's rights and concerned people have always been the ones to carry the ball. But members of this forum probably don't need to be told this. All I know is that the coming elections will see a new high in political activity for me, although I would much rather be out rambling around in the woods with whatever I want to carry.

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