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#14522 - 04/04/03 03:27 PM Re: A Fundamental Question

All I know is that the coming elections will see a new high in political activity for me, although I would much rather be out rambling around in the woods with whatever I want to carry.


And I couldn't agree more with your thoughts on the matter. As an aside, being a former teacher I try very hard not to use the word "stupid" very often. Its a very emotionally charged word and can do a lot of damage when used in the wrong place. However, I will say that some of these security measures are simply, stupid.

BTW, my political activism started approximately 1 month after 9/11/01. There's about a million things I'd rather do than deal with politicians, but I also think its very important that we put a stop to all this reactionary "feel good" nonsense before it gets any more out of hand than it already is.

#14523 - 04/04/03 04:18 PM Stopping power? Statistical significance!

Wow, we agree and we disagree - I hope you're loading your own .380 rounds - what they sell in the U.S. is underpowered. I have a library of statistics on different loads on my hard drive. To me there is no significant "statistical" difference in +P 9mm vs. 45ACP power - the numbers are too close to statistically declare a winner, especially in actual LEO historical shootout experience. Maybe I was overstating to say equal or better, but to me most .45 talk is in mojo-land. I love it when they start talking momentum. Kinetic energy is where it's at. Anyway, I can probably put three 9mm rounds to POA before a less well trained shooter can shoot two 45 ACP rounds. BTW, FYI, I keep a S&W model 19 .357 in the glovebox. The 357 SIG is a winner in my book too - my cousin just traded his 45 ACP for one. Regards, Keys

Edited by KeysBear (04/04/03 05:15 PM)

#14524 - 04/04/03 05:19 PM Re: Stopping power? Statistical significance!

Well, I've never gotten into reloading. I just use the Cor-bon +P for now. It is an interesting idea though. I may have to spend some time out the garage with my dad the next time I go home to visit.

All the statistical differences between most popular rounds are pretty small. My spreadsheet puts the best 9mm +P at 91% (Cor-bon) and the best .45 at 94% (Federal Hydroshock). I do try to average all the stopping power data and look at which rounds are more effective in general. My logic being that if I have to just run in a store and buy something off the shelf, I want to know what round would most likely be effective. When you average all the data, the .45 pulls ahead of the 9mm a bit more (87% vs. 81%). You're quite right when you say a lot of discussions about caliber degrade into "my daddy can beat up your daddy" kind of nonsense, but every now and then you can weed through the noise and find somebody that can give you justified arguments for their position. <img src="images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Being a physicists, I've tried several times to explain the difference between momentum and kinetic energy to some people. I've even used the analogy of the military using high speed sabots to penetrate enemy tank armor. A lot of people have their minds made up and just ignore whatever you tell them. They seem to only be there to change YOUR mind and assume they've already got everything figured out. But I agree with you about kinetic energy. And since it scales with mass (linearly), but velocity squared, light and fast beats heavy and slow (if you wanna bore a hole right through 'em). But it only works that way if you assume you're on target. If you've missed all the vital stuff and are just embedding in muscle, knockdown power can be a very useful thing. And missing the vital areas can be a real concern in a stressful situation like a shootout.

It all depends on your skill level... if you're good, then a .357 Sig is the right gun. If you don't pracitce much, the .45 is a much better choice. I'm not sure where the 9mm fits in there, but I'd say its somewhere in between for sure.

Edited by benman (04/04/03 05:26 PM)

#14525 - 04/04/03 05:55 PM Re: Stopping power? Statistical significance!

benman - you are "the man"
I use this example. The folly of momentum is that it is a linear calculation. If I tossed a 16 lb. (112,000 grain projectile) bowling ball at you at a speed of 2 feet per second it would have more momentum than the 45 ACP, but would have zero penetration and almost no knockdown power. At the other end of ridiculous - if comparing bullet weights and loads with equal kinetic energies I'm sure that if I could get a grain of sand traveling fast enough (hypothetical - it would melt first) it would boil flesh and vaporize bone. Given a choice I'd take a hit with the bowling ball. Regards, Keys

Edited by KeysBear (04/04/03 06:06 PM)

#14526 - 04/04/03 07:09 PM Re: Stopping power? Statistical significance!

I'm sure that if I could get a grain of sand traveling fast enough (hypothetical - it would melt first) it would boil flesh and vaporize bone.

Not to keep beating the dead horse, but I thought I'd point out that this is exactly the kind of thing that happens in space. A grain-sized meteor can pretty much punch right through a communications satelite. That's why all the systems are redundant. There's basically no way to shield against it!

#14527 - 04/04/03 08:48 PM Re: Stopping power? Statistical significance!
Hutch66 Offline
new member

Registered: 10/12/02
Posts: 148
Loc: Virginia, USA
I read an article a few months back that you all might find interesting and I've been trying to find it in my piles of such saved things, but since I can't put my finger on it I'll paraphrase. They did a test using different handgun rounds while hunting, the idea being that a person's reaction to being shot would depend at least partly on what he thought would happen when he got shot, while the deer had no preconceptions. They found that the round itself made very little difference (I think they tested 9mm-.45ACP) The make or break factor was shot placement. The deer shot with 9mm reacted the same as the deer shot with a .45 if the shot was in the same location.

Just thought you might be interested,
Chris. (Glock 27)

#14528 - 04/04/03 09:04 PM Re: Stopping power? Statistical significance!

That is interesting... if you ever find that article, make sure you give us a reference so we can go look it up. I'd certainly like to know the details on how they measured the data, all the factors they tried to control, and how they kept the PETA heads from going completely nuts! <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Frenchy might like it too so that he can continue to live vicariously through us barbarians here in the U.S. Sorry, Frenchy... just teasin'! <img src="images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


#14529 - 04/04/03 10:45 PM Re: "shirt & tie" PSKs
Happy Birthday Craig Offline

Registered: 11/13/01
Posts: 1784
Loc: Collegeville, PA, USA
I covet the Midnite MiniChamp II myself. Don't have a Micra yet. Don't have a Squirt yet, either.

I gotta ask: What's a "q-tip travel pack?"

#14530 - 04/04/03 10:52 PM Re: A Fundamental Question
Happy Birthday Craig Offline

Registered: 11/13/01
Posts: 1784
Loc: Collegeville, PA, USA
I'm not planning a tour of the White House. I'm not that curious. By the way, I believe typical airport security has changed, I think. The last time I traveled through Philadelphia International Airport, the tray for pocket change had been retired as far as I could see. EVERYTHING in your pockets went into your coat, which was then balled up and sent through the detector. You then walked through the upright detectors. No room to manuever, as far as I could tell.

#14531 - 04/04/03 11:05 PM Re: The Law in DC, re: SAK or Edged Tool Carry
Happy Birthday Craig Offline

Registered: 11/13/01
Posts: 1784
Loc: Collegeville, PA, USA
Thanks, man. You know your stuff.

I think I'm cool, then.

I have one folder with a blade over three inches that I take with me only on hikes in the woods. All my other folders are on the small side, SAKs or others with blades about two inches or less. They have to be small to fit in the pockets of my dressy office slacks.

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