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#144209 - 08/15/08 01:04 AM Casper - the friendly ghost
Chisel Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 12/05/05
Posts: 1147
What do you do when you are a frienly ghooaasstt !!

I have been thinking about all those messy situations that happened in Serbia, Iraq, Beirut Rwanda ..etc. There were popel of different ethnic or religious belifes living together in peace and then suddenly its war.

A story I was never able to forget is when Hutus or Tutsis (can't tell the difference) ordered a man from their tribe to kill his wife from the other tribe or be killed himself. I can imagine same might have happened to a Serbian man ordered to kill his Croat wife for example, or Iraqi man asked to kill his wife from the other tribe or other religion. It can be North Korean and South Korean, or Indonesian and East Timorese (sp?) whatever. It may even be Russians and Georgeans.

I know a few persons who tried to live peacefully in the middle but each ended up treated as a "hypocrite" by the other side, and a "traitor" by his own side.

Now let's say, you are from an ethnic/religious group but you don't particularly care, and want to only live in peace and enjoy life as is. However, there are fanatics on your side and on the other side.

There is no war, but tensions are high. How do you plan to survive this situation ? Do you leave the country or area and forget about both sides ? Do you try to resolve things and propably get hurt in the process?

Does it make a difference in your decision if your side is the majority or the minority ?

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#144216 - 08/15/08 02:04 AM Re: Casper - the friendly ghost [Re: Chisel]
BobS Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 924
Loc: Toledo Ohio
This is not an easy thing to answer without swerving into politics and condemning a style of government or religion.

People live together in most countries. But when you have dictators both PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. and PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER., dictators that are religionist extremist governments (like Iran) and extremist Muslim terrorist you have problems that just can't be worked out. Best to move away from these countries if you can.


In the USA we have a very good life that is tolerant of others views and cultures and this type of problem is minimized and for the most part not tolerated.

I know it sounds simple, to say to move away from the environment that breeds this hate. But I don’t see any other answer.

Hard to move? Yes, but people have done it in the past like in Germany when Hitler took power in 1933. Or you can stay and chance death.


Edited by BobS (08/15/08 02:31 AM)
Edit Reason: Spelling
_________________________



You can run, but you'll only die tired.


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#144251 - 08/15/08 01:01 PM Re: Casper - the friendly ghost [Re: BobS]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4018
Loc: Anchorage AK
Or you can fight.

If you accept that each of us is entitled to pursue our beliefs and practice our religions in such a manner as not to impose on the same rights of others, then you are obliged to stand in the face of tyranny and do the right thing.

It is not so hard to stand by your convictions and face death as a martyr, but the real test is to be willing to do it for your neighbor, even though they do not share your same beliefs, but because he has as much right as you do. By opposing fanaticism, you are doing the same thing, whether the attack is against you directly, or against others.

Running away only serves to promote the interests of tyrants. What do you do when there is nowhere left to run?

You must accept that peace comes at a great cost. Only when you are willing to pay that price for the greater good will you be able to attain and maintain the peace.

Imagine what kind of army the Jews in the Holocaust could've been if they'd all been armed and knew beforehand what was coming if they didn't fight. Some of them did, and fought heroically, and faced death on their own terms.

It is simple fact of life, only when your enemies have great respect for you will they avoid a fight. Respect is earned, usually with blood, and an iron will to back it up. They may test your resolve, but if you are vigilant, you will fare far better than if you try to appease, or just get along, and ignore the threat.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#144268 - 08/15/08 03:48 PM Re: Casper - the friendly ghost [Re: benjammin]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
In most places, you are never going to resolve anything. It is not within your power. In the Middle East, for example, these hatreds and attitudes are thousands of years old. You're not going to change them, and neither is Uncle Sam, no matter how many billions he throws at the problem.

Sue

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#144277 - 08/15/08 04:29 PM Re: Casper - the friendly ghost [Re: NightHiker]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
A bigoted enemy is by definition someone with an irrational hatred.who will not respect you, ever. Fear, maybe, but never respect.

I find instructive Sun Tsu in "The Art of War." A favorite quote that may be applicable, at least by analogy, to this discussion”

“There are five dangerous faults which may affect a general: (1) Recklessness, which leads to destruction; (2) cowardice, which leads to capture; (3) a hasty temper, which can be provoked by insults; (4) a delicacy of honor which is sensitive to shame; (5) over-solicitude for his men, which exposes him to worry and trouble.”

Sun Tsu characterized ground situations into 9 categories. “Ground on which we can only be saved from destruction by fighting without delay is death ground.” It is on “death ground” that he advised you must fight.

But the bulk of his advice was to avoid fighting until the advantages of fighting were on your side. As regards your enemy, “If he is in superior strength, evade him.” And, “Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.”

So, the point is that fighting should be one of your last strategies.

Facing genocide, or a bigoted mob, should require the most delicate consideration of all that can be gained and all that can be lost by fighting. While it is true as Edmund Burke said, “All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing” that does not mean foolish self-sacrifice makes sense. Indeed, Sun Tsu wrote, “The skillful leader subdues the enemy's troops without any fighting; he captures their cities without laying siege to them; he overthrows their kingdom without lengthy operations in the field.”

Back off, gather allies, act when you have the advantage, get the enemy to persuade themselves to change their behavior, fight as a last resort. A lot of this is not “manly” in appearance to a crowd looking for rough justice; it takes far more courage and foresight to do what must be done for ultimate success.

Nobody said it would be fair or easy.

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#144287 - 08/15/08 06:26 PM Re: Casper - the friendly ghost [Re: dweste]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4018
Loc: Anchorage AK
Yes, I suppose he who fights and runs away lives to fight another day. I agree with that ideology, so long as the fight is re-engaged. Discretion is important to the battlefield commander, but sometimes we must realize that a sacrifice is inevitable for the greater good.

Fear, to me, is a form of respect. They may not respect who you are, but they damned sure will respect what you are capable of.

If you base your outcome entirely on the moment, then of course the chance of fomenting change is minimal. When facing a determined enemy, it is likely that you will suffer loss for an extended period before change becomes even a possibility. Sometimes it takes a hundred thousand dying before others will step up and say enough is enough. If a few brave men weren't willing to die for the cause in Lexington or somewhere near San Antonio, I suppose we would still be a commonwealth, or Texas would still be a Mexican state.

Retreat isn't necessarily cowardice, if you have a plan to recover. Sometimes you make a stand, sometimes you buy some time. Knowing when to do either for best effect, that's the difference between a famous general and a notorious one (or maybe a dead one).

Political agendas usually take more time and greater sacrifice before change can come. If sacrifices aren't made, usually in the form of people making a hopeless stand, then don't expect things to ever change.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#144310 - 08/15/08 09:35 PM Re: Casper - the friendly ghost [Re: Chisel]
LED Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 1473
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted By: Chisel
What do you do when you are a frienly ghooaasstt !!

I have been thinking about all those messy situations that happened in Serbia, Iraq, Beirut Rwanda ..etc. There were popel of different ethnic or religious belifes living together in peace and then suddenly its war.


Well, the important thing to remember is that its never "suddenly" war. There's always a complex brew of events leading up to hostilites, usually years in the making. Thats true in each of the examples listed above. Thats actually a positive thing in the sense that it can give people time to plan accordingly.


Quote:

There is no war, but tensions are high. How do you plan to survive this situation ? Do you leave the country or area and forget about both sides ? Do you try to resolve things and propably get hurt in the process?


This has a lot to do with economics. Historically, those who can leave, do. In the run up to any conflict the first group to leave is the professional class or those with means to relocate for the duration of hostilities. Sure, some choose to stay but for most people in a war zone economic constraints dictate where they can and cannot go.

Quote:

Does it make a difference in your decision if your side is the majority or the minority ?


Population wise or politically? In short, that always makes a difference but in no way guarantees your safety. Also, keep in mind that the situation might change too rapidly for you make proper plans.


Edited by LED (08/15/08 09:35 PM)

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