Here's a really interesting, technically informative article by a guy who moved his house to solar power. Among the many interesting things, it was far more cost efficient to go 75% solar than to go off the grid completely. The article has lots of great details and pictures. The cost was $35K, which he expects to recoup in 9 years, although the system sounds very experimental, so who knows how it will work out. (It also certainly helps that he lives in CA.)

I haven't read it yet but 9 years to recoup initial investment most likely? I'd imagine in that 9 year time span he's going to need batteries and misc other things.

I believe that not only does solar equipment need to get cheaper but the appliances most people rely on need to get more efficient.

In reality you can go 100% solar pretty darn easy if you don't have many appliances at all

Clothe line or propane dryer.
Propane water heater.
Propane oven.

Those are mostly the big power zappers unless you are like me and weld, and work in the garage to make stuff.... then you really can't go 100% off the grid unless you get a generator made for that (they have them).

I think there are a lot of options and going 100% off grid and living 100% the same is EXPENSIVE. If you re-arrange and make some sacrifices it makes it a bit cheaper.

Since I don't plan to power everything 100% by solar myself my future goal is to have segments available to solar if my power goes out and then maybe slowly fade from the grid.

Enough rambling.

-Todd

One of the HUGE "tricks" in not going 100% solar - you can do what is called a "grid tied" system - no batteries at ALL is the huge advantage. You sell power during the day (which is when the utilities need the most), and buy at night

slight disclaimer:
3 guys I used to work with 10 years ago own the company that makes a LOT of the inverters used in solar/wind power (the wind power on the BIG windmills). Other than Christmas cards, and the occasional hello, I have no interest in their company

Without batteries you're still screwed when the power grid goes down.
Grid tied system is a good idea as it lowers the investment, but you need at least a small battery system.

Thats why I'm not a fan of the grid tie systems. Here every time there is a little rain the power goes out or when someone cuts an underground line or when someone else connectes a new branch circuit and overloads the transformer. Were without power once a month on average, and twice in the last three years I've had to go back home upon arriving at work to find no power.
It seems pointless to me to have invested all the $ in generating your own power if your going to just put it back into the grid then when you need it most not have it avaulable because the grid went down.

It would be awesome to set something like that up on my house, but I don't think they could handle a hurricane.

-Blast

Yes, that IS the problem with grid tie - grid is down, you are down. I'm not too worried

I agree that to spend that money and still be at the mercy of the grid seems like the wrong way to do it.

I understand the idea of selling extra electricity you produce to the electricity company. This could be a good first step and from this grid-tied system to work to change it to an off grid system when money allows.

I applaud this guy, he’s doing more then most of us are doing.

It must not get too cold where you are then
It's a real beach when the power goes out for a week in the middle of winter (unless you've made conitngency plans that don't count on the power grid I suppose.)

We installed a solar system at our 5 acre ranch earlier this year.

I couln't imagine using the volume of power the guy from the article uses. As ToddW mentioned, we line dry our clothes and have propane for our stovetop/oven, water heater and furnace (and burn wood to supplement there too).

The system we installed was 18 - 200w Sanyo panels for 3.6Kw. We opted for two inverters, although one would have worked so that we have the capabilities to add capacity at a later date. Having 5 acres we were able to pole mount the panels in one of our pastures for optimum exposure.

As Eugene mentions, the standard 'grid tied' system works great as long as the power utility is up, but once their power goes down - so does yours! For this reason we installed a modified system that included 12-126a 12v AGM batteries in three series of 48v. When the power goes off, we maintain power to critical loads (well pump, fridge, most lights, office computer) with seamless power. We also have a 7500w (B&S) back up generator that we can patch into the system should we sustain an extended power outage during and extended storm. This is enough to power our home and recharge the batteries over a three hour period. Although, with some conservation, the battery back up should get us through several days of off grid power with little or no power coming from the panels.

We have a net meter installed and were able to get P.G.& E.'s E-7 rate plan. The rate (coming in or going out) is about $0.09 per Kw hour off peak and $0.30 per Kw hour on peak (M-F 12N to 6PM). Essentially at the peak of their demand we are selling power back to them at $0.30 per Kw and buying it back at $0.09 per Kw. Over the past week we have accumulated 7 Kw hours of off peak credit ($0.63) and 45 Kw hours of peak credit ($13.50). One catch with PG&E is that you will not get a credit check back from them - and the credits are only energy credits against energy use that are zero'd out annually - if your owe them, you pay them; if they owe you, you get nothing and the process starts over. That is why unless you are going completely off grid it doesn't pay to have a system that produces above your usage. Also, somehow PG&E has mandatory charges of about $12.00 per month to look at your net meter - go figure.

In all, we expect to about zero out our bill annually and have the ability to function for extended periods of time off the grid, should the circumstances call for it. Our system, after rebates, cost us about $40,000 (the battery back up added about $7,500 to a standard grid tied system).

If you can go solar and be self sufficient I would do it. I can only imagine power costs going up.

We didn't run our heater once last year. We live in the Sacramento Valley and it gets into the low 30s and a couple nights high 20s at night. So, probably not as cold as some of you here

During the day doing things around the house you start to notice the cold on those REALLY cold days but overall I was fine, my lady noticed it a bit more.

It can be done around here though.

-TOdd

We had one winter where a day or two before Christmas we had ice rain, asn't quite cold enough higher up for snow so what came down was basically ice or nearly frozen water which froze when it landed on anything. It sounded like a war that night as trees and power lines were falling down. People had to bug out to hotels for as long as a week due to no power. I've moved to a suburb now and the power lines directly to my house are underground so its a bit better but were still without power in the area often.

Let's see, I've lived within 5 miles of where I do my entire life, and my parents lived there for 54 years - in those 54 years, the power has gone out 5 times, the longest for about 36 hours, most of them for less than 12

For some reason I'm not too worried. That said, when I rebuild the house next year, there is a real good chance I'm putting in a whole house genset, as I think the grid is getting worse - 3 of those 5 times are in the last 5 years

The local electrical power is very reliable. It’s never been off for more then a few hours and I can only remember it going down ½ doz times in my life. A few years the whole eastern seaboard had a blackout (that was caused by my local electric company) and while other places were without power for up to a few days, we were down less then 2-hrs.


I would still like to be grid free.

Solar water heater
Solar cooker(s)
Solar power by photovoltaic cells

12 volt LEDs, and appliances

Wind-power generator
Wind-powered pump(s)

Roof runoff water capture system
Gravity-fed water system

Lots of big batteries with inverters (and other things I don't quite understand).

Switches between you and the grid: sell only when you want, divert to your batteries when you do not.

Buried mass heat exchanger for HVAC

Why not add an electric vehicle and a sailboat?

But I assume you have some always ready, large capacity, deep cycle batteries for ARES or RACES work? I don't think I've ever met a ham involved in emcomm who wasn't (very) well prepared.

For those who just want to get into solar power and, in the long run, save money a grid tied system may be the way to go. Once the system is installed there is very little maintenance. About once a year you wash off the panels and the major mechanical and electrical connections should be inspected and tightened as needed but that is pretty much it.

A system with batteries is considerably more expensive and complicated. Batteries require regular maintenance and it isn't just adding batteries. The solar output has to be regulated to charge the batteries. And once charged there has to be a inverter to convert the DC power in the batteries into the AC most of your household appliances require. Last time I looked adding a large battery bank, charge controller, inverter and related equipment can double the cost of a simple grid-tie system.

The good news is that it is possible to get your foot in the door with a small grid-tie solar system and to add to it to get a very capable system. Once a full rack of solar panels is installed it is possible to take the monthly savings on the power bill and put it aside to let you buy a battery bank later. Effectively bootstrapping your way into a fully independent power system of your own.

A good way to start out with solar is to explore solar water heating first. This will give you a useable source of hot water and it’s inexpensive compared to photovoltaic cells.

And if you are mechanically inclined you can make a lot or even all of it yourself. You just have to make sure you incorporate a few safety items that a regular hot water system doesn’t need. Solar heat can far exceed the temperature limits of a normal water system. Pipes can break, hot water tanks can explode or vent extremely hot water with no notice.

But as long as you install safety devices it’s a great idea that pays for itself a lot quicker then solar electric panels.


Also look into solar air heaters for some free room heat. A solar air heater is about the size of a medium window and produces as much heat as a 1500-watt electric heater.

It needs a small electric fan to circulate air, but a very small solar panel and a computer fan can work for this. Making it 100% free heat.

I have just been a part of some research on turning a house onto solar power with the idea that he would run his home on sufficient solar so as to roll the meter back during the day and suck off the grid at night, when his demand for power was much lower.

He knew what his annual kilowatt hrs were and he supplied that to the distributors that he was talking to when discussing his needs.

After looking at the estimates that he received, I advised him to do the math-money wise.

When he did that math, he found a curious coincidence. He has been consistently quoted a lifetime of 28 years for the solar panels. The prices quoted were consistently HALF of his projected electrical costs for 28 years. In other words, the price quoted is based, not on actual costs, but what the distributors calculate will be half of his regular cost, no matter what hrs he was quoting. IMHO, this sounds like trying to buy a used car.

This sales tactic is designed to fool people into paying a much higher profit margin that what is reasonable and is significantly slowing the spread of personal homes from becoming power sufficient.

Now do the math in this regard and see what you are finding. Another item of interest: I am being told by some that the true lifespan of solar panels is anywhere from 15-28 years!! That can seriously change the outcome of the money side of "doing the math"!!

Grid power is in many ways wonderful, it’s probably more reliable then a home system if you take into account all the maintenance you have to do and things will break and power stops till YOU fix it (lay in a good supply of spare parts or you could be out of power till they get shipped to you or a good sized generator and fuel)

Grid power (from the customers viewpoint) is self repairing, it goes of (rarely) and then comes back on in short order. It’s also less expensive then any electricity you can make.


But I still would like to be off-grid.

What we all want is the option to be on-grid to sell power and to be off-grid whenever we want or have to be. You know, all we want is everything.

So would I AND I will be eventually.

The dramatic change in our way of life has already started, as in: The End Of The World As We Knew It, but it's a slow start that will gain momentum, especially in new construction.

There is a new breed coming of age now and I am IMPRESSED with what I have been observing recently as they are quietly taking charge of their lives and of their living circumstances.

http://www.solarsponge.com/article.htm
Awesome.

RE Grid power being cheaper than you can make.

If you look at the breakthroughs IN THE LAB, over the last say 9-12 months (the first of which are coming on line now), solar power will not only reach the "break even point" in the next 3 years or so, but should actually become cheaper in many locals than buying power, with 2 main assumptions.

The first is that you don't have to pay for the land to put up your solar array - with that, all bets are off. You are already paying for the land your rooftop covers, so...

The second is that you don't really try for 100% "off grid". Sizing your array to try to handle peak load, particularly at NIGHT (read VERY large battery banks), or huge arrays if peak draw is during the day (rare in a home situataion, where you go to work) can really make the the ROI point of putting in a system exceed the life of said system (assume you will have to replace the cells in 20 years, batteries every??)

The break even point will change from location to location. From what I understand, on Long Island, in LIPA's area, it already pays with the rebates that LIPA offers. As far as I can tell, here in ConEd's area (some of the most expensive electric in the country), the ROI is negative, because there is no rebate

I presonally research the ROI about once/year, becasue as soon as the ROI is positive, my roof will have a set of cells

As was mentioned by someone earlier (sorry, I forgot who) reducing power consumption will do a lot for reducing how much power you need to provide via solar.

Adding insulation to your home to improve its efficiency helps.

Killing phantom power loads via a central smart switch or by adding power strips with on/off switches will reduce consumption.

There are a number of tutorials on the web for horizontal refrigerator and freezer set-ups that save an amazing amount of energy. First, by being chest type units the cold air doesn't dump out into the environment when the door is opened. Secondly these units are super insulated. Thirdly, the condenser coils are moved away from the unit, and in one case I'd read about the person was using them to preheat water. After that a number of other tricks are used such as temperature switches that cut power to the refrigerator when it reaches preset temperatures.

As mentioned before, solar water heaters help to preheat water so you use less energy to get it to the temperature you want.

An interesting idea I've seen recently is using waste concrete to fill a home's internal wall cavities to build up thermal mass to save on energy used for heating and cooling.

Solar Air heaters were mentioned before as well. Then there's passive solar design, but that's something that usually needs to be thought about as the home is being built.

Solar lighting can help reduce electrical loads during the day.

There's a lot of other things we can do to reduce power consumption that won't adversely affect our lives too badly as well.

Also, please understand that while I'm trying to reduce my consumption, I like my toys too, so I'm working on reducing wasted power not so much looking to live like a monk by candle light. LOL

I've been looking into getting off the grid for a while now and I think another decision I've made is to reduce the size of my future home's floor plan. By taking away one room, I reduce the power needed to heat and cool the home, and save money on construction and materials costs that can be put toward the Solar PV system.

Maybe it's just me, but everyone who is interested in solar seems to be wanting active (mechanical) solar. Does anyone ever consider passive solar? I've seen homes with a solar array on the roof, with the main bank of windows facing any direction except south. I guess that's fine if you've got more money than you know what to do with. But wouldn't it make sense to start with passive solar, reduce your heating/cooling needs, and THEN start investigating active solar?

I had made the comment fairly recently that every new home (within maybe ten years) was placed to face the street, not the sun, and Martin F. contradicted me, saying that more and more are taking advantage of solar gain. So I've been looking again. Nope, not here in W. WA. There are quite a few custom houses on acreage, and without any exceptions that I could see, every single one of them faces the street. The only ones facing south are the ones on the north side of their east/west street. What a waste of free energy!

Anyone interested in mostly-passive solar should check out a book called Solviva by Anna Edey. (Ignore the next section of the title, which is expensive blue-sky.) But her work with the basics of solar thermal convection is very interesting, and she built her home on those principles.

Her designs for in-home composting toilets are also useful. And please keep in mind that her designs have been in use for some years now, they are not just theoretical pie-in-the-sky.

Sue

I think active solar water heating is better suited to freezing temps then passive solar is. This may be why you see more of it.

Passove solar can really only be considered before the house is built, not afterwards, so that's why I'm not too interested in it. I wasn't even alive when my house was built much less able to influence it's construction.

I'd tend to agree with you, Susan. In a lot of areas the direction the front of the house faces is generally the road, and not south to take advantage of solar gain.

However, there are some newer communities starting to pop up here and there with house rows and roads traveling east west.

My Brother-In-Law actually had to get permission from a HOA to angle his house catty-corner to the street it was on. He finally got the OK, but only because his house was on an intersection. This allowed him to place a bunch of windows on the back of his house, facing south.

I'm currently trying to get him to add Solar PV to the back of his house.