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#141905 - 07/28/08 08:51 PM Re: Do you believe? [Re: Jeff_M]
Rodion Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/29/08
Posts: 285
Loc: Israel
Originally Posted By: Jeff_McCann

Either they will comply, or they won't. But their response will tell us pretty much everything we need to know their nature and intentions, won't it?


No. "They" could have millenia on their hands and readily comply, leaving behind whatever "treasures" the primitives negotiators requested as proof of good faith. When they come back, you're back to square one.

I think the bottom line here is that it's pretty much impossible for a toddler to plan a viable defense against the adults' schemes.

And I don't even believe in UFOs...
_________________________
Whenever you rest, someone, somewhere is training to kick your ass.

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#141907 - 07/28/08 09:08 PM Re: Do you believe? [Re: Rodion]
Jeff_M Offline
Addict

Registered: 07/18/07
Posts: 665
Loc: Northwest Florida
Good points, but putting things off as long as possible is often a good strategy.

Suppose the First Americans had slaughtered Columbus and his crew on the beach, and every explorer or conquestador thereafter, for some time, and used that time to contemplate, study and prepare for European contact with better understanding and insight into what it might mean for them? Suppose they had been able to bargain between Spain and England, for example? Might we be seeing an Aztec controlled Mexico today?

Human experience shows what happens whenever a truly inferior civilization comes into contact with a vastly superior one, very bad things happen to the inferior one. So how do we avoid or mitigate this?

Also, let's not make the same mistakes the Incas made in overestimating the Conquistadors. First Contact may well be followed shortly by Second Contact with somebody different, and Third Contact, etc. . .

Jeff

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#141910 - 07/28/08 09:20 PM Re: Do you believe? [Re: Jeff_M]
Rodion Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/29/08
Posts: 285
Loc: Israel
So what you're saying is basically...

kill them all?



I like your style.
_________________________
Whenever you rest, someone, somewhere is training to kick your ass.

www.kravmagafederation.com

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#141913 - 07/28/08 09:44 PM Re: Do you believe? [Re: Jeff_M]
CityBoyGoneCountry Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/04/07
Posts: 369
Originally Posted By: Jeff_McCann
Human experience shows what happens whenever a truly inferior civilization comes into contact with a vastly superior one, very bad things happen to the inferior one.


Ahhh... Human experience. But we're not talking about humans, are we? I think it would be presumptuous of us to assume they think like us.

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#141915 - 07/28/08 09:56 PM Re: Do you believe? [Re: Rodion]
Jeff_M Offline
Addict

Registered: 07/18/07
Posts: 665
Loc: Northwest Florida
Originally Posted By: Rodion
So what you're saying is basically...

kill them all?

I like your style.


Well, If I were National Security Advisor to any of the Meso-Americans circa 1492, that's what I'd recommend (less a few hostages and study samples).

At least, that is the lesson I've drawn from their subsequent experience of being slaughtered themselves and having their entire civilizations wiped out.

I even recall reading a legitimate government think piece that advocated slagging the first, and all subsequent UFOs that land without asking nicely first, with nukes, and made a pretty convincing argument for it, too. Alas, that is lost to the dim mists of my memory. I'd love to re-read it.

Jeff

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#141917 - 07/28/08 09:59 PM Re: Do you believe? [Re: CityBoyGoneCountry]
Jeff_M Offline
Addict

Registered: 07/18/07
Posts: 665
Loc: Northwest Florida
Originally Posted By: CityBoyGoneCountry
Originally Posted By: Jeff_McCann
Human experience shows what happens whenever a truly inferior civilization comes into contact with a vastly superior one, very bad things happen to the inferior one.


Ahhh... Human experience. But we're not talking about humans, are we? I think it would be presumptuous of us to assume they think like us.


You got any OTHER experiences we could consider?

Jeff

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#141918 - 07/28/08 10:03 PM Re: Do you believe? [Re: Jeff_M]
CityBoyGoneCountry Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/04/07
Posts: 369
Originally Posted By: Jeff_McCann
Originally Posted By: CityBoyGoneCountry
Originally Posted By: Jeff_McCann
Human experience shows what happens whenever a truly inferior civilization comes into contact with a vastly superior one, very bad things happen to the inferior one.


Ahhh... Human experience. But we're not talking about humans, are we? I think it would be presumptuous of us to assume they think like us.


You got any OTHER experiences we could consider?

Jeff


Nope. That's why we can never understand the mind of an alien unless we actually meet them. My analogy is that we are monkeys trying to think like jelly fish.

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#141923 - 07/28/08 10:19 PM Re: Do you believe? [Re: CityBoyGoneCountry]
Jeff_M Offline
Addict

Registered: 07/18/07
Posts: 665
Loc: Northwest Florida
Originally Posted By: CityBoyGoneCountry
(snip)My analogy is that we are monkeys trying to think like jelly fish.


Aren't squid and octopus (octopi?) suspected of a high degree of "alien" like intelligence?

Maybe the space aliens don't find us that interesting, or maybe they find us carnivores repulsive and Earth a "Nightmare planet" so they leave us mostly alone, or, like your monkeys and jellyfish, there's just no potential zone of interaction or commonality to make meaningful contact either feasible or worthwhile.

Still, suppose a flying saucer descends on the White House Lawn. The President calls you for advice because of the noticable brilliance you've displayed in this forum. What do you tell him. Or

You are walking through the woods one day and encounter a "little green man" obviously not of this Earth. What's your next move?

Anyone? Buehler?

Jeff

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#141926 - 07/28/08 10:33 PM Re: Do you believe? [Re: Jeff_M]
CityBoyGoneCountry Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/04/07
Posts: 369
Originally Posted By: Jeff_McCann
Maybe the space aliens don't find us that interesting, or maybe they find us carnivores repulsive and Earth a "Nightmare planet" so they leave us mostly alone, or, like your monkeys and jellyfish, there's just no potential zone of interaction or commonality to make meaningful contact either feasible or worthwhile.


All possibilities. I wouldn't rule any of them out until I had a good reason to.

Originally Posted By: Jeff_McCann
Still, suppose a flying saucer descends on the White House Lawn. The President calls you for advice because of the noticable brilliance you've displayed in this forum. What do you tell him.


I tell him to walk softly and carry a big stick. They could turn out to be friendly, in which case we have a fantastic learning opportunity. Or they could turn out to be hostile. There's simply no way to know until you start communicating.

Originally Posted By: Jeff_McCann
You are walking through the woods one day and encounter a "little green man" obviously not of this Earth. What's your next move?


I sh-t my pants.

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#141929 - 07/28/08 10:46 PM Re: Do you believe? [Re: CityBoyGoneCountry]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
From ghosts to aliens... not a bad bit of topic drift :P

There are really only three reasons to leave one's solar system:

-Acreage with good air and water. There is a LOT of water and metal and methane and for all we know light hydrocarbons out there in the form of comets and asteroids. And there is plenty of acreage out there if you use grow lights and green houses and constructs of various types. But it won't be beach front.

-Precious and unique luxury trades. Spices, drugs, and organics like textiles, woods and perfumes that can't be synthesized worth a damn. Maybe antimatter, on a NIMBY principle. Everything else.... if you can get FTL or even sleeper ships, you can harvest those asteroids and comets. You only trade trinkets like fish hooks and belt buckles and the cure for cancer with the local primitives because the don't know the true value of their worth.

-Spreading the word. Yes, I'm talking about witnessing the miracle of Humf'slurch to the ignorant and backwards primates who are too innocent to know the truth. And while we're doing that, we'll be using them as cheap labor and janissary troops, while trading them cheap trinkets. And if they give us too much grief, slaughter the brave and loud, and make slaves of the rest. Or lunch. Or we'll have a one way sleeper ship that has two choice- take slaves or be slaves, and either way they'll try to beat us down.

None of that is exactly Starfleet issue sweetness and light. Yes, I'm a cynic. Again, I don't know what you UFOs are, but I know what I hope they aren't.

BTW, Jeff, Nightmare Planet? You wouldn't have read Hogan's Giant's Trilogy by chance?
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When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

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