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#141912 - 07/28/08 09:37 PM Re: Diapers? [Re: Rodion]
Jeff_M Offline
Addict

Registered: 07/18/07
Posts: 665
Loc: Northwest Florida
Originally Posted By: Rodion
Originally Posted By: Jeff_McCann
Originally Posted By: Rodion
I think anything and everything on you may be "confiscated for the greater good" if an official lays their eyes on it. Some folks advise against seeking dedicated "shelters" for this very reason.


May I ask, specifically, why you think that? Is it based on some related personal experience? Is it an extrapolation from your view of government behavior generally? Something you read or saw in the media? An abundance of caution or a distaste of others wielding their power like dogs off their leash during the emergency? No disrespect intended. I sincerely would like to know how folks arrive at this not uncommon opinion.

Jeff


No offense taken.

Our government stinks. It stinks hard. I will not go into details (as that delves into fairly dangerous information that, although freely available to all who look, will not be passed on by yours truly), let's just say when push comes to shove, I do not expect to be saved by our marvelous disaster relief system.

In the wake of a serious disaster, I fully expect officials on the ground to compensate shortages by taking resources from wherever they are found. Naturally, SAR won't be looting ruined homes, but the shelter supplies redistribution described above seems very real to me, especially knowing the genuinely personal attitude adopted here.

Your description of the US disaster relief system seems unrealistic in the local climate. It also fails to address the possibility to a temporary collapse in said system, when the local authorities are reduced to basically the guys with guns and there are no supply trucks on the horizon.


I can agree about gov't sucking big time in a general sense. So, why do you trust SAR not to loot when they go in and out of houses, but not related responders?

My opinions are based on two things: Extensive first-hand, on-scene experience in a variaty of capacities in basically every type of natural and man-made disaster the US has experienced over the last quarter century, and my research as a lawyer and academic in this field.

It may seem unrealistic to you, but that's the way it DOES work, in broad general terms, albeit with fits, starts, hiccups, outright failures, political incompetence and other problems large and small along the way, and limitied to ordinary-scale regional domestic disasters, not truly national emergencies like all out nuclear war or asteroid strikes.

More specifically, I've run shelters, worked at shelters, supported shelter operations, and inspected shelter operations. I know shelters, at least so far as they have and do operate in the above-described situations. If somebody tries to take your stuff, which I have NEVER seen or heard happen, I advise you go get the cop that is usually standing around nearby, and RAISE HELL.

Jeff

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#141914 - 07/28/08 09:48 PM Re: Diapers? [Re: ]
Jeff_M Offline
Addict

Registered: 07/18/07
Posts: 665
Loc: Northwest Florida
Originally Posted By: Hacksaw
I believe it comes from Executive Order #12919 which is an amalgum of a bunch of other presidential EOs going quite a ways back. (snip)


I understand, and I have run into this issue before and I am very familiar with this pernicious EO. Please don't think I'm dismissing your point or dodging a reply, but that stuff is so complex and technical that it's pretty hard to discuss in this type of forum. Yes, there is some genuinely potentially very, very dangerous and worrisome stuff there, and many other places besides, that could lead to political disasters up to and including the complete overthrow of Constitutional government and the rule of law as we know it.

But I am referring, as I said, to the run of the mill regional disaster like Hurricane Katrina or the World Trade Center attack, and in very broad, general terms, where American life goes on pretty much as normal in most of the remainder of the country. Nor am I excluding the chance of severe misconduct by a few panicky or opportunistic local idiots or a-holes in the early hours or days of an emergency.

Jeff

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#141916 - 07/28/08 09:57 PM Re: Diapers? [Re: Jeff_M]
wildman800 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2818
Loc: La-USA
Check out what the fed, state, local police forces, in conjunction with the National Guard (strong arm muscle) did in New Orleans, La after Katrina and Greenwood, Ks (??) after a tornado wiped out the town.

Many residents in Greenwood, Ks had perfectly good homes that were untouched by the tornado but they were all forced to leave their homes and town. One resident who refused to leave, armed themselves and only a single state trooper prevented a shootout by convincing the authorities to back off and give the home owners time to think about the consequences of continued resistance.

It's very interesting to review what occurred in town once all of the locals were removed. Check it out!
_________________________
QMC, USCG (Ret)
The best luck is what you make yourself!

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#141919 - 07/28/08 10:08 PM Re: Diapers? [Re: wildman800]
Jeff_M Offline
Addict

Registered: 07/18/07
Posts: 665
Loc: Northwest Florida
Originally Posted By: wildman800
Check out what the fed, state, local police forces, in conjunction with the National Guard (strong arm muscle) did in New Orleans, La after Katrina and Greenwood, Ks (??) after a tornado wiped out the town.

Many residents in Greenwood, Ks had perfectly good homes that were untouched by the tornado but they were all forced to leave their homes and town. One resident who refused to leave, armed themselves and only a single state trooper prevented a shootout by convincing the authorities to back off and give the home owners time to think about the consequences of continued resistance.

It's very interesting to review what occurred in town once all of the locals were removed. Check it out!


With respect, perhaps it would be better if you were to post, cite or describe what specifically you are referring to, so that we are all on the same page, and then we can discuss it, if that's OK with you?

Personally, I've found that there are a lot of untrue but persistant rumors and myths in circulation about what actually happened in NOLA particularly, and about who did what, and how much of it really went on.

I'm always on the lookout for credible stories of people being forced into, kept in, or otherwise abused under color of authority in sanctioned disaster shelters. I'm still looking, but I've collected some real horror stories so far, although of the bad conditions and incompetent management kind.

Jeff

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#141936 - 07/28/08 11:04 PM Re: Diapers? [Re: Jeff_M]
Hacksaw
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Jeff_McCann
Please don't think I'm dismissing your point or dodging a reply, but that stuff is so complex and technical that it's pretty hard to discuss in this type of forum.


No worries. I'm not interested in discussing US Law. As a Canadian I don't get our laws let alone yours.

I found that site with google and about 3 searches. If it's that easy to find (I didn't link the dozens of survivalist sites that also mentioned it), then many people know about it.

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#141940 - 07/28/08 11:10 PM Re: Diapers? [Re: Jeff_M]
Fitzoid Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/23/05
Posts: 289
Loc: WI, MA, and NYC
I think this is a great topic, particularly if everyone tones down the govt bashing and sticks to information, and Jeff seems very calm and reasonable discussing it.

However, you might want to start a new thread, as one titled "Diapers?" may not attract the relevant crowd! grin
_________________________
-----
"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading." Henny Youngman

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#142007 - 07/29/08 04:50 AM Re: Diapers? [Re: thatguyjeff]
Joy Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 67
Hi Jeff,

I don't know if you are interested in getting cloth diapers in place of or along with disposables or not, but I am adding some more information here in case you or someone else on this board is. If you aren't, then you can ignore this post since I know that this is way more information then you wanted - not to mention more involved then you wanted to get.

I had mentioned in my earlier post that plastic diaper covers might not last very long in storage, since the plastic might get brittle. I read on another board that the elastic also has a fairly short shelf life. I am not sure what the shelf life of elastic is though. One of the posters posted this as an alternative to plastic diaper covers:
http://www.thirstiesbaby.com/covers.htm

I also mentioned that it might be hard to wash cloth diapers in long term emergencies. I came across this method that might work. It still uses quite a bit of water though. It said to get the flat cloth diapers, because they would be easier for the mother to clean if there wasn't very much water:

"To wash cloth diapers you will need a 5 gallon bucket, a plunger, and some laundry soap. Get the most basic, cheapest one you can find. Diapers don't need any additives.

Put 8-10 diapers at a time into the bucket and fill until they are covered. Plunge the heck out of them with the plunger for many minutes and then empty the water. Fill again and plunge again. Then fill with rinse water and plunge one more time. Wring out and hang to dry."


I still suggest that if you do get cloth diapers that you spend a little time printing out instructions on how to fold them and clean them and stuff like that. Young women who grow up and are never exposed to using cloth diapers would have no idea how to fold them and put them on a baby. You can get diapers that are already padded and ready to pin or velcro on, but they can be harder to wash if water is scarce.

I got some of the information in this post here:
http://www.mrssurvival.com/forums/ubbthr...ge=1#Post229225

Joy

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#142096 - 07/29/08 07:32 PM Re: Diapers? [Re: thatguyjeff]
TeacherRO Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/11/05
Posts: 2396
I'd say no - Mostly because they are so bulky and limited use. ( at least disposables.) Instead, store more of what you use/ need; food, water, batteries, tools, etc.

Good that you are thinking ahead.

Teacher

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#142122 - 07/29/08 10:24 PM Re: Diapers? [Re: ]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
"... shoe a horse..."

Actually, most "blacksmiths" do a lot more than just shoe horses. If they even do that. I know a guy in Tenn who calls himself a blacksmith, he can make just about anything out of metal. You name it, he can make it. Tenn being Tenn, he makes a lot of money constructing stills. I have a bottle of home grown hooch that he gave me, it will put hair on everything but my noggin'...
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OBG

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#142123 - 07/29/08 10:43 PM Re: Diapers? [Re: thatguyjeff]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
Re hoarding diapers for barter; I think that I would have a hard time sticking (so to speak) it to a mom with kids and no diapers. If I had them and didn't need them myself (I'm not that old yet), I would give them.

Re cleaning cloth diapers; assuming that anyone can actually buy them anymore, when my wife was a single mom, working a couple of jobs, taking college classes, and doing Navy Reserve time, she washed her daughters diapers with an old fashioned scub board in the bath tub.

Re bartering; I like Hacksaws idea of learning a usefull trade. In normal times, electricians always seem to be doing a job for someone, then getting some kind of work done for them in trade. Obviously an electrician won't be of much help if there is no power, but being able to fix or make "stuff" could probably earn you all kinds of neat stuff in return...
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OBG

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