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#140672 - 07/21/08 10:15 PM Re: Getting a handgun and all that goes with it [Re: MDinana]
CityBoyGoneCountry Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/04/07
Posts: 369
Originally Posted By: MDinana
Rebuttal time!
1) I wasn't giving stats, just personal observation. However, aside from the guy who died in the ED, and the guy with 14 shots in the ICU, most of them were still mobile. In fact, I'd say that the most debilitated, in terms of being a non-threat, were the 3 femur fractures, the two eye injuries, and a few of the chest shots. A couple abdomen wounds were still pretty mobile. That being said, "Ambulatory" doesn't equal "legitamite threat."

2) Calibers are all over the place. It's also hard to tell after the bullet is deformed, or penetrated through a person. However, all the shotgun wounds so far have been less than fatal (suprisingly). The one person hit with buckshot probably could have kept running, had 1 pellet not broken his femur. It seems that pistol calibers are, therefore, unreliable in predicting the actual damage inflicted (by choosing based on "number" alone). Even the person shot in the forehead was awake, alert, and moving all extremities when they arrived.

3) That's pretty depressing. Better practice reloading, or getting a gun with a big magazine.

My point, not even typed, was that I've seen a bunch of people shot, and most have lived to discharge home. So, don't automatically assume a gun will kill/stop a person intent on harm. Even multiple hits, on a non-drugged person, won't necessarily eliminate a threat. Be aware of that, and don't make assumptions about a gun's capability.


1 & 2. Again, the debate here is whether a big caliber is more effective than a small caliber. If you don't know which calibers were used on your patients, then your information is incomplete and therefore irrelevent. My guess (and this is only a guess) would be that the majority are 9mm since that's the most popular caliber in the United States.

3. That was what I said originally. If you need more than 6 shots, then you're better off using a machine gun because your aim sucks. But his reply to me was that even the police, who have more firearms training than the average citizen, are inaccurate under duress.


Edited by CityBoyGoneCountry (07/21/08 10:24 PM)

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#140673 - 07/21/08 10:17 PM Re: Getting a handgun and all that goes with it [Re: CityBoyGoneCountry]
CityBoyGoneCountry Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/04/07
Posts: 369
By the way, this thread has multiple conversations going on at the same time. It's kinda important to pay attention to the context in which my posts are made.

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#140675 - 07/21/08 10:50 PM Re: Getting a handgun and all that goes with it [Re: CityBoyGoneCountry]
Russ Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4589
Loc: SOCAL
Even if it does stop him, "How long did it take him to stop?" It might not stop an attacker before he killed the homeowner.

A gut shot is far from a CNS hit and it won't drop the bad guy's blood pressure like clipping the critical upper chest pipes and organs.

IANAD either.

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#140682 - 07/21/08 11:54 PM Re: Getting a handgun and all that goes with it [Re: CityBoyGoneCountry]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2184
Loc: Deep south... Carolina
Originally Posted By: CityBoyGoneCountry


1 & 2. Again, the debate here is whether a big caliber is more effective than a small caliber. If you don't know which calibers were used on your patients, then your information is incomplete and therefore irrelevent. My guess (and this is only a guess) would be that the majority are 9mm since that's the most popular caliber in the United States.

3. That was what I said originally. If you need more than 6 shots, then you're better off using a machine gun because your aim sucks. But his reply to me was that even the police, who have more firearms training than the average citizen, are inaccurate under duress.

Actually, I'm making a reply more along the lines of the first page of comments, not so much "which caliber to buy." you're right, there are several discussions going. But the OP is about "what should go along with acquiring a handgun." In my post, you should think about the realities of gunfire - even with multiple hits, you may not stop someone. Edit: part of the problem, I admit, is that my screen is set up as a first-to-last, not by thread view. I didn't read all 6 pages before posting, just used your comments as a starting point for mine.

Not sure how you can call my information incomplete, though I would agree that 9mm is statistically most likely. Doctors don't really care what caliber was used, that's for the detectives. We're more interested in plugging the holes and keeping them breathing. Most bullets are left in place anyway, instead of tearing up the body more trying to find the darned things. Given the generic nature of the OP - "pistol" - not a specific caliber, I feel my observations are still valid. Besides, even if I knew every caliber, I still wouldn't know if the round was a standard round, or a +P, a +P+ or a hand-loaded round!

As an aside, even using "caliber" as a refernce tool is kind of a moot point. After all, a .22, .223, or 22-250 are all darned similar calibers, with widely different uses (even though they're rifles, the point stands). Since kinetic energy is affected more by velocity than mass, I'd think a faster bullet would be more harmful than a slow one, provided that the round effectively tranferred that energy into the target. The practical example is a paintball: .68 caliber, yet usually restricted to about 300fps. Bigger round than the good ole .50, but I'd rather have the latter than the former for taking out targets.


Edited by MDinana (07/21/08 11:57 PM)

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#140683 - 07/21/08 11:57 PM Re: Getting a handgun and all that goes with it [Re: CityBoyGoneCountry]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 1929
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: CityBoyGoneCountry
My point was simply that a .44 Magnum gutshot is going to stop you.
Maybe a few days later when they stop living due to septic shock from the digestive contents that leaked into their abdomen. But that doesn't help you as the the victim one bit during the actual attack.

They'll probably just look down, say "I've been shot! That one went clean through-and-through! I'm gonna kill you you $%&)@^!!!", and continue attacking you. I'll give you that you should use the largest most powerful caliber that you can easily control and place shots well with. But if you can't control the largest/most powerful, you should back down on the power you chose, not the control. I know I can't shoot a .44mag well. I've only shot one on one occasion, and that was more than enough. A few shots with one of those cannons will tell any normal person that this is not a personal defense handgun (except maybe Dirty Harry). A .357mag is the most I can control well enough for defensive use, and even that's really pushing it for me. I would not choose that for my defensive weapon, even though it's one of the best choices if you only look at terminal ballistics and ignore the control issue. Some people can control a .357 well during rapid fire/stress, but for many it's pretty marginal if not impossible.

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#140687 - 07/22/08 12:22 AM Re: Getting a handgun and all that goes with it [Re: haertig]
nursemike Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 788
Loc: wellington, fl
People recover from serious injuries. People die from minor injuries. A Harvard study on patient safety a few years reached the alarming conclusion that significant errors in medical treatment-wrong drug, wrong treatment, wrong patient, like that-occur at the rate of one per patient per hospital day. If you can wound 'em enough to get them into the hospital, we will take care of it for you from there. The big gun versus little gun debate is a moo point. (do you mean moot point? No, I mean moo point-only cows care). Big guns make big holes, little guns make little holes so you need to make more of them, and it matters where you make the hole. Getting barked at by a dog is discouraging. Getting bitten by a dog is discouraging. Getting shot at is more discouraging. Getting shot at and hit is very discouraging. None of these things will solve every problem that comes along, just as the DRPSK will not equip you to survive every scenario. The value in all this is not the conclusion, it is the discussion. Everyone is right. Kum ba yah, good neighbors.


Edited by nursemike (07/22/08 12:24 AM)
Edit Reason: grammar
_________________________
Dance like you have never been hurt, work like no one is watching,love like you don't need the money.

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#140696 - 07/22/08 01:28 AM Re: Getting a handgun and all that goes with it [Re: haertig]
Russ Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4589
Loc: SOCAL
.44 Mag is overrated as a PD handgun caliber. It's okay for PD as long as it's a reduced charge and payload. One of my fav loads is 240 gr hard cast lead SWC at 1000 FPS. Ithits hard and is accurate too. Slow fire, .44 Mag can be very accurate and carry a lot of energy (relative to handguns) at 100 yds, but that's hardly a PD shot. But most guys with a .44 magnum want to shoot 240 gr at 1250-1400 FPS because a .44 Magnum is all about power eek IMO those loads are brutal to the shooter.

But like I stated, IMO .44 Mag is overrated. I went back to 9mm in a Glock G-19 for carry. The newer 147 gr loadings have plenty of penetration and the Gold Dot opens up nicely. That and it groups well for me with relatively mild recoil. YMMV, lotsa different valid opinions. $.02

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#140700 - 07/22/08 01:42 AM Re: Getting a handgun and all that goes with it [Re: CityBoyGoneCountry]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
"...If you need more than 6 shots, then you're better off using a machine gun because your aim sucks..."

I know of two different CHP officers who put six rounds of what used to be called the "Treasury Load," a 110 gr HP, +P+ .38 spl into badguys without stopping him. One BG multi-officers then swarmed, the other officer, while getting his bell run with a ball peen hammer, pulled out a 2" .38 and put two more rounds in center of mass. The bad guy then stated something like "hey, you shot me," dropped the hammer, and sat down. Neither died. That load was considered to be a pretty hot load too...
_________________________
OBG

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#140712 - 07/22/08 02:24 AM Re: Getting a handgun and all that goes with it [Re: OldBaldGuy]
BobS Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 924
Loc: Toledo Ohio
Since everyone in this thread is telling everyone else in this thread that guns donít stop a bad guy, we should all just give up and sell our guns.

Itís turning into my gun choice is more deadly then your gun choice.

Step back and read what is being posted.


The fact is that guns work to stop people, every police force and military force knows this, quit reading this testosterone thread and just buy a gun if you want one and keep it around to protect yourself.
_________________________



You can run, but you'll only die tired.


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#140718 - 07/22/08 02:52 AM Re: Getting a handgun and all that goes with it [Re: OldBaldGuy]
Russ Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4589
Loc: SOCAL
A "pretty hot load" with a very fast lightly constructed bullet. It probably expanded and slowed down quickly with little penetration. That's one problem with the "energy dump" theory of terminal ballistics.

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