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#140643 - 07/21/08 07:35 PM Re: Getting a handgun and all that goes with it [Re: MDinana]
Nishnabotna Offline
Icon of Sin
Addict

Registered: 12/31/07
Posts: 512
Loc: Nebraska
I think it can also have a lot to do with the cartridge contruction. I've read more than one account where a cartridge from a caliber was ineffective in (quickly) stopping someone with multiple shots, whereas a differently constructed cartridge in the same caliber can kill a person dead with one shot.
Of course, I've never shot anyone so it's all hearsay to me...


Edited by Nishnabotna (07/21/08 07:35 PM)

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#140644 - 07/21/08 07:47 PM Re: Getting a handgun and all that goes with it [Re: MDinana]
CityBoyGoneCountry Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/04/07
Posts: 369
Originally Posted By: MDinana
Originally Posted By: CityBoyGoneCountry
[quote=BrianB]
The higher the caliber, the more it's gonna hurt. The more it hurts, the more likely you're gonna stop. I would like to meet the man who can take a .357, or a .45, or a .44 to the gut and still keep fighting.


I'm deciding to join on this a bit late, but here's some recently developed thoughts I have. Currently, I've been on the Trauma Service at a hopsital in downtown Detroit. On my patient list, at this exact moment, I have 10 patients with gunshot wounds. Over the last 3 weeks, I've seen probably close to 50 patients with gunshots.

People I've seen survive:
shots to the head (including those that penetrate the brain)
shots to the chest
birdshot
buckshot
multiple (10+) gunshot wounds

So, based on these 50 or so encounters, I've decided that it's not number of shots, or caliber, it's SHOT PLACEMENT. The ONE person that's died on my shifts had a head wound with brain material coming out. In contrast, I have 3 patients currently with head wounds that are not dead, including a person that took a hit in the forehead. The take home message is, in a SELF DEFENSE SITUATION A) hit what you aim at, B) aim at parts that stop the person (you don't always have to kill) and C) shoot until they stop. Many of my patients kept running after being shot multiple times. Someone could easily run to you, not away.

Again, idle musings based on treating lots of shot people.


1. Being alive does not equal being a threat, so statistics on who is still alive at the hospital says nothing about whether or not the person who shot them saved his own life by doing so.

2. You did not say what caliber bullet was used on the ones who kept running. If it was a small caliber, that only reinforces my point that bigger is better.

3. Earlier in this thread someone told me that the accuracy rate of cops in duress is only 2 out of 10. If that's true, then you can throw shot placement out the window.

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#140645 - 07/21/08 07:49 PM Re: Getting a handgun and all that goes with it [Re: Nishnabotna]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
Shot placement rules.
_________________________
Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

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#140647 - 07/21/08 08:00 PM Re: Getting a handgun and all that goes with it [Re: red]
CityBoyGoneCountry Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/04/07
Posts: 369
Ok, I went back and found it. This is the post that, if true, means that your shot placement will be mostly a matter of luck and not practice.

Originally Posted By: red
Originally Posted By: CityBoyGoneCountry
And if you need more than 6 shots, then you're better off using a machine gun because your aim sucks.


IIRC according to my last CCW instructor, the accuracy rate among LEO's under duress (in a gunfight, for example) is 2 out of 10 rounds. Now I know statistics are fraught with problems, but *still*... LEO's usually have lots more training than citizens when it comes to taking down a bad guy.

Ever had buck fever? The shakes? The buck isn't out to kill you. In a gunfight, the bad guy is. I've been in one gun confrontation and my brain just went on autopilot. I forgot to take the safety off the shotgun even though I practiced it over and over. Luckily the perp that was on the other side of the door was unarmed. This is why a DAO is such a good option. (BTW, the racking of the shell with the slide didn't phase the perp in the slightest...he was so stoned I don't think he even knew what the sound was)

So, missing six rounds is not unthinkable and may not indicate that one's aim sucks.

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#140648 - 07/21/08 08:05 PM Re: Getting a handgun and all that goes with it [Re: Chris Kavanaugh]
CJK Offline
Addict

Registered: 08/14/05
Posts: 601
Loc: FL, USA
Forgive me if this is repeated information....there are just too many posts to go through to see if this has been posted before....if so...sorry.

As a certified instructor, I will reccomend the following for your study....(books)

In The Graves Extreme (The role of the firearm in personal protection) by Massad Ayoob

Stressfire (all volumes) by Massad Ayoob

In Self Defense (the legal, ethical and tactical use of deadly force) by Michael T Izumi

All are (IMHO) excellent reads....and I recommend them wholeheartedly. I often suggest them to any student I am to train as reading BEFORE coming to the class. A lot of time they come in saying how much more informed they are. It usually generates a lot of questions....but those questions are always excellent and usually more advanced than the questions the student had planned on asking before they read the books.

No I don't think they are the 'end all, be all' of the information you need....but they are an excellent start.

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#140654 - 07/21/08 08:42 PM Re: Getting a handgun and all that goes with it [Re: Russ]
GarlyDog Offline
ô¿ô
Old Hand

Registered: 04/05/07
Posts: 776
Loc: The People's Republic of IL
Originally Posted By: Russ
Some folks though expect their pet dog to be a guard dog which is a major step up from a watch dog.


Agreed.

Originally Posted By: Russ

Police K-9's go for about $5K as an untrained youngster with good bloodlines. Check out the pricetag on a Schutzhund qualified German Shepherd.


This is true too. However, I see puppies with Top SchH competition/work potential get sold for well under $2,000 every week. I admit, this is still real money. But a purebreed anything will cost this much too.

I know of dogs that have been rescued at the dog pound that have gone on to do real service work. Cost does not translate into a good dog. Drive translates into a good dog. People in the business joke that the best working dog in the world right now is sitting in someone's back yard and will never be breed or trained. Who knows? It just might be your dog.
_________________________
Gary








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#140655 - 07/21/08 08:45 PM Re: Getting a handgun and all that goes with it [Re: Nishnabotna]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
If you tell the police that you shot to kill, you will need one..
_________________________
OBG

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#140665 - 07/21/08 09:27 PM Re: Getting a handgun and all that goes with it [Re: CityBoyGoneCountry]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2208
Loc: Beer&Cheese country
Originally Posted By: CityBoyGoneCountry

1. Being alive does not equal being a threat, so statistics on who is still alive at the hospital says nothing about whether or not the person who shot them saved his own life by doing so.

2. You did not say what caliber bullet was used on the ones who kept running. If it was a small caliber, that only reinforces my point that bigger is better.

3. Earlier in this thread someone told me that the accuracy rate of cops in duress is only 2 out of 10. If that's true, then you can throw shot placement out the window.


Rebuttal time!
1) I wasn't giving stats, just personal observation. However, aside from the guy who died in the ED, and the guy with 14 shots in the ICU, most of them were still mobile. In fact, I'd say that the most debilitated, in terms of being a non-threat, were the 3 femur fractures, the two eye injuries, and a few of the chest shots. A couple abdomen wounds were still pretty mobile. That being said, "Ambulatory" doesn't equal "legitamite threat."

2) Calibers are all over the place. It's also hard to tell after the bullet is deformed, or penetrated through a person. However, all the shotgun wounds so far have been less than fatal (suprisingly). The one person hit with buckshot probably could have kept running, had 1 pellet not broken his femur. It seems that pistol calibers are, therefore, unreliable in predicting the actual damage inflicted (by choosing based on "number" alone). Even the person shot in the forehead was awake, alert, and moving all extremities when they arrived.

3) That's pretty depressing. Better practice reloading, or getting a gun with a big magazine.

My point, not even typed, was that I've seen a bunch of people shot, and most have lived to discharge home. So, don't automatically assume a gun will kill/stop a person intent on harm. Even multiple hits, on a non-drugged person, won't necessarily eliminate a threat. Be aware of that, and don't make assumptions about a gun's capability.

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#140670 - 07/21/08 10:04 PM Re: Getting a handgun and all that goes with it [Re: CityBoyGoneCountry]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2322
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: CityBoyGoneCountry
I would like to meet the man who can take a .357, or a .45, or a .44 to the gut and still keep fighting.

Chances are, if you shoot them in the gut, you'll get your chance to meet them. Very up close and personal.

Where did you get the information that a shot to the gut (i.e., mid to lower abdominal area) is going to do much of anything in the short term? A direct hit to the spine/aorta/vena cava might do it, but that's a pretty small target. A fractured pelvis could give them a bit of a slowing limp, but such gut shots aren't something anyone with training would go for intentionally. Irregardless of caliber.

It's not pain that stops an attacker. And a larger caliber is not really going to be any more painful than a smaller one anyway. I would fear a .32 to the chest a lot more than a .45 to the gut.

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#140671 - 07/21/08 10:09 PM Re: Getting a handgun and all that goes with it [Re: haertig]
CityBoyGoneCountry Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/04/07
Posts: 369
Originally Posted By: haertig
Originally Posted By: CityBoyGoneCountry
I would like to meet the man who can take a .357, or a .45, or a .44 to the gut and still keep fighting.

Chances are, if you shoot them in the gut, you'll get your chance to meet them. Very up close and personal.

Where did you get the information that a shot to the gut (i.e., mid to lower abdominal area) is going to do much of anything in the short term? A direct hit to the spine/aorta/vena cava might do it, but that's a pretty small target. A fractured pelvis could give them a bit of a slowing limp, but such gut shots aren't something anyone with training would go for intentionally. Irregardless of caliber.

It's not pain that stops an attacker. And a larger caliber is not really going to be any more painful than a smaller one anyway. I would fear a .32 to the chest a lot more than a .45 to the gut.


I'm not saying the gut is the best place to shoot them. I was replying to another poster who said that a handgun can't stop an attacker unless you hit a vital area. My point was simply that a .44 Magnum gutshot is going to stop you.

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