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#139990 - 07/17/08 02:00 PM Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB?
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
I have been guilty of thinking about a bug out as just like a backpacking trip on short notice. More thought inspired my dog attack questions in another thread on this forum. Still more thought leads me to pose the following:

If my optimal bug out route is unavailable and I have to go "cross-country" I am going to encounter a lot of barbed wire fences, chain link fences, and locked farm gates. Climbing them would be time-consuming and perhaps dangerous.

I'm thinking my BOB may need to get heavier by including some kind of cutting tool to go through fences, chains, etc. My Leatherman tool can cope with some of these, but should I consider something like a cam-type leveraging bolt cutter? What are your thoughts?

Thanks.

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#140004 - 07/17/08 02:28 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: dweste]
BobS Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 924
Loc: Toledo Ohio
If it were my property you were destroying and cutting up, it would not go over well and I would not be all that friendly to a person doing this if I happened upon them while in the act. How would you feel if you found someone tearing your property apart costing you a lot of time and money to fix? My guess, not too over thrilled.


Just because we feel the need to move from one place to another, it doesn’t give us the right to destroy things along the way. This country is pretty much covered by roads all across it, no need to hack through a fence. I read someplace that it averages out to a road every 9.5 miles in the USA. Yea out west it’s going to be farther and in the east that could be every ¼ mile. But the point is to do some extra traveling to find a road rather then act like a tornado.
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#140010 - 07/17/08 02:50 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: BobS]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
BobS, I am trying to stretch my mind around what would be required in survival situations. I suspect I remain naive about much of it, but I am trying to get there with a little help from my friends.

Normally I would not consider trespassing or destroying someone's private property. And I would like to know if there is a way to reduce damage, etc. if I have to get through a fence or gate.

But if I am bugging out it is an emergency survival situation and if roads, which are my planned bug out routes, are out of the question for some reason, what then?

Thanks.



Edited by dweste (07/17/08 02:54 PM)

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#140012 - 07/17/08 02:55 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: dweste]
Blast Offline
INTERCEPTOR
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3760
Loc: TX
Along with the private property rights mentioned by others, a good bolt cutter weighs a hell of a lot. I think you'd be better served by other, more useful gear.

-Blast
_________________________
Foraging Texas
Medicine Man Plant Co.
DrMerriwether on YouTube
Radio Call Sign: KI5BOG
*As an Amazon Influencer, I may earn a sales commission on Amazon links in my posts.

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#140013 - 07/17/08 02:58 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: dweste]
Nishnabotna Offline
Icon of Sin
Addict

Registered: 12/31/07
Posts: 512
Loc: Nebraska
If the choice was to cut a fence or die, then that fence is going down.
If the choice was to cut a fence or be mildly annoyed, I guess I'd be walking out of my way.
Most fences you should usually be able to climb anyway.

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#140018 - 07/17/08 03:08 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: Nishnabotna]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
The scenario I am trying to think through is, if I am forced to bug out on foot and the world is going to heck, roads and intersections are going to be choke points and possibly kill/capture zones that I may want to avoid at all costs. Around here going cross-country means going over, under, around, or through wire fences and locked gates.

Is this such a remote possibility that I should just let it go?

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#140019 - 07/17/08 03:08 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: dweste]
BobS Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 924
Loc: Toledo Ohio
Just short of a total collapse of society or a direct immediate threat to our lives I don’t see it as any right of ours to destroy what others have worked hard to buy and also worked hard to install.

What direct immediate threat to your life would you see as a need to chop up a fence rather then to climb over it or go around?


Katrina is a good example of the need to relocate, but I don’t think it was a need to destroy things along the way.


After you got out of the trouble you were in, and the emergency is passed (and it will pass), will you go back and pay for and also do the work to repair every fence you hacked through and pay for any animals (cows horses and the like) that may have gotten out because of your action? Most people would not!

I’m not really trying to argue or give you a hard time, I just think other peoples property should be respected and I also feel it’s easy to go over, walk, ride or drive around a fence without destroying it.


Bolt cutters are a very specific use item, they cut locks, fences and chains. All of these items are generally purchased and used by people that own things or property that they don’t want others on or to have access to or to contain animals, this is well within their legal and moral rights. I respect that and would walk around.


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You can run, but you'll only die tired.


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#140031 - 07/17/08 03:21 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: dweste]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
I am not advocating your cutting up of other peoples property, but if I were thinking along your lines, I would take along a pair of fencing pilers (I just grabbed this link from google, you can find them in just about any hardware store). With them you can cut bob waar, cyclone fences, etc, pull staples, drive staples/nails/tent pegs, etc, and they don't weigh a ton. Bolt cutters, even little ones, weigh a lot...
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#140032 - 07/17/08 03:23 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: BobS]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
Maybe my imagination is running too wild. The scenarios I have thought about so far include:

1. The gang controlling the must-pass intersection behind the barricade of burned out cars, with evidence that the fate of passersby is none too pretty.

2. The government blockade to enforce no-travel restrictions that would force me to remain in an untenable urban environment with exhausted resources and constantly increasing threat of attack.

3. The dog pack, human predators, rising flood waters, or increasing flames on my heels when I encounter the unclimable chain link fence topped by razor wire at the end of a dead end alley, or otherwise preventing my escape.

4.The unclimable chain link fence topped by razor wire that would force me to travel beyond my likely resources to avoid encountering any of the above.


Edited by dweste (07/17/08 03:42 PM)

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#140033 - 07/17/08 03:23 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: BobS]
Hacksaw
Unregistered


If I were detained by authorities one of the most suspicious things I think I could carry are bolt cutters.

I wouldn't tread on private property unless you needed to. I've been chased from a farmers field at the end of a barrel because I was walking where he'd just freshly seeded. Had I been riding my dirt bike I think I could have gotten a warning shot to the chest. smile

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#140034 - 07/17/08 03:25 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: BobS]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1177
Loc: Channeled Scablands
I had this problem just last week. I went to the local Forest
Service shooting range to take my boy to try out Grandad's
old Remington Model 4 22. I met a couple of guys there also shooting 22's.
One was kind of surly with having to share the
range. When they left, they locked the gate in such
a way using a Forest Service paddlock that my gun club padlock
wouldn't open the gate.

There I was with a young boy, a puppy, 95 degree weather, no
cell phone coverage and no other people around to let me out.

I could walk out, but it would have been a long, hot hike
and we were not "Equipped" for that.

But I alway carry one of those wire saws for metal and was
able to cut a link in the chain and drive home. I called the
Forest Service to let them know what I had done and that someone
with one of their keys was, well, not acting nice. The gate and
lock still functioned as ever because I only took out one link.
And the Forest Service was going to rig the system better so that
wouldn't be able to happen again.

As for fencing, in the parts of the country where I grew up
and range properties were measured in sections rather than
acres, it was considered okay when traveling by horseback to
take out the staples of the fence line enough to lower the
wire so your horse could cross, then you were to replace the
staples and leave everything as you found it. You
carried a fencing tool
(http://www.drillspot.com/products/337692/Crescent_193610CVSMN_Fence_Tool_Plier)
and some staples, with your horse.



Edited by clearwater (07/17/08 03:27 PM)

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#140044 - 07/17/08 04:03 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: clearwater]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
Excellent post and good ideas.

What is a "wire saw for metal"?

Is there any comparable, relatively non-destructive and undetectable way to deal with chain link fences?


Edited by dweste (07/17/08 04:04 PM)

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#140045 - 07/17/08 04:04 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: ]
BobS Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 924
Loc: Toledo Ohio
If you were trying to avoid people and detection, leaving a trail of hacked fences would not help you remain stealthy, it would do the reverse.
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#140046 - 07/17/08 04:04 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: BobS]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
That's my point exactly.

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#140048 - 07/17/08 04:08 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: BobS]
BobS Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 924
Loc: Toledo Ohio
Is there any comparable, relatively non-destructive and undetectable way to deal with chain link fences?

Throw a thick heavy carpet over it and climb over. This will insulate you from the sharp edges. Problem is the carpet is heavy and unruly to pack with you.
_________________________



You can run, but you'll only die tired.


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#140051 - 07/17/08 04:15 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: dweste]
philip Offline
Addict

Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 639
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Well, take a look around your area: Where are the chain link fences topped by razor wire. Seriously. How many and where are they? How many dead end alleys are on your escape route? How long will it take the human predators, dog pack, and rising flaming flood waters to get to you, versus cutting your way through the chain link fence topped by razor wire.

I was raised on a farm, and I never saw a barbed wire fence people couldn't get through without damage quicker than they could have cut through. Farmers weren't running concertina razor wire back then, but things may have changed and things may be different in your neck of the woods.

Without knowing where you are, your imagination does seem to be running rampant. None of what you describe happened in New Orleans as far as I can recall. Did I miss something on the news?

On the other hand, just grab the bolt cutters and put 'em in your BOB. If you're that concerned, just get them.

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#140053 - 07/17/08 04:16 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: dweste]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1177
Loc: Channeled Scablands

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#140054 - 07/17/08 04:25 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: clearwater]
Hacksaw
Unregistered


One of these might be more practical than a wire saw...we all know how hit or miss the wire wood saws can be.

http://www.pocketsaw.com/
You could also carry one of the Gerber multiplier models which has an exchangable blade very similar to the one above.


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#140060 - 07/17/08 04:36 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: clearwater]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
I'm noticing razor wire on the fences around the new vineyards and around gates in lots of areas on my potential bug out route; sad sign of the times I guess. And of course it is getting to be standard in any urban area. At many bridges the private wire runs into the government wire, so if you need to access the riverbank away from a bridge you encounter wire.

Many of the barbed wire fences in central California are on metal posts, not wooden, and are stretched tight by come-alongs or even vehicles before being fastened down. Maybe cutting the fasteners on several posts would allow you to push the wire up or down enough to get through or over, I am not sure.

Yeah, this thread is about the extreme case; maybe the ridiculously extreme case. I do not know how to judge that, and that's why I posted my questions.

I also figure considering the extreme case and figuring out how to reasonably prepare for that eventuality is part of what this forum is about. Part of that preparation is thinking through the ethics of the situation now, instead of in the heat of the moment, and working out how to deal with any ethical dilemmas.

So I appreciate all the posts so far and look forward to seeing what you wily guys come up with!


Edited by dweste (07/17/08 04:37 PM)

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#140068 - 07/17/08 05:05 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: dweste]
Blast Offline
INTERCEPTOR
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3760
Loc: TX
Quote:
So I appreciate all the posts so far and look forward to seeing what you wily guys come up with!


Thermite, 10g at a time.

-Blast
_________________________
Foraging Texas
Medicine Man Plant Co.
DrMerriwether on YouTube
Radio Call Sign: KI5BOG
*As an Amazon Influencer, I may earn a sales commission on Amazon links in my posts.

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#140069 - 07/17/08 05:05 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: ]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1177
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Trying to cut through a 5/8" chain link with one of those
would take a lifetime. To cut through both sides of
the link took me about 15 minutes with a carbide wire
saw.

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#140070 - 07/17/08 05:29 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: dweste]
wildman800 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2846
Loc: La-USA
My thoughts, and I have actually thought about this topic:

Barbed Wire fences can be gone through after dropping your pack to the ground, cross between the wires, and then pull your pack through, under the wires. No need to carry a Fencing Tool, IMHO.

Gates usually have chains and would require bolt cutters, which have significant weight. Gates usually close the gap between barbed wire fences; see the paragraph above. No need to carry Bolt Cutters, IMHO.

Cutting a fence or chained gate leaves a calling card broadcasting your presence. A decent tracker can tell how long you were at that location and which direction you were travelling in, and usually how loaded that you are, which then tells him/her how fast you are likely travelling. IMHO, NOT a good idea.

If you are "Bugging Out or Bugging In", advertising your passage/presence is never going to be a good idea, generally speaking, IMHO.

It is definitely a better idea to adopt the US Navy SEAL atitude of moving like a Ghost and leaving as much of a trail as a Ghost!
_________________________
QMC, USCG (Ret)
The best luck is what you make yourself!

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#140073 - 07/17/08 05:40 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: wildman800]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1177
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Of course one can get around barb wire fences easily on foot.

But if you are in a vehicle/animal of some type, you may need to
get through the gate or fence. Lots of gated backcountry roads
around here, both public and private that are gated, and if
you got stuck behind one with heavy snow or wildfire blocking
the usual egress, being able to keep your vehicle could be
an advantage.

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#140076 - 07/17/08 05:45 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: clearwater]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
wildman800 - thoughts on chain link fences and gates, especially those topped with razor wire?

When you can't be a ghost?

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#140082 - 07/17/08 05:56 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: dweste]
wildman800 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2846
Loc: La-USA
Good point, carry a fencing tool or go around.

I would generally go around because that kind of fencing indicates superior forces within, that most likely have a good reason for keeping people out!!!

That also indicates a willingness on the part of the Defenders to shoot first and ask questions later!

I'll remain a ghost who skirts around the perimeter, Thank-You.
_________________________
QMC, USCG (Ret)
The best luck is what you make yourself!

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#140084 - 07/17/08 05:57 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: dweste]
thseng Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 900
Loc: NW NJ
Originally Posted By: dweste
wildman800 - thoughts on chain link fences and gates, especially those topped with razor wire?

If it's topped with razor wire it's probably a prison, military base, or some other place you'd probably want to avoid in the first place. Anything with with razor wire around it may also be guarded.

A plain old chain link fence is easily climbed by anyone fit enought to walk cross country with bolt cutters in his backpack.
_________________________
- Tom S.

"Never trust and engineer who doesn't carry a pocketknife."

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#140087 - 07/17/08 06:00 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: thseng]
Mike_H Offline
Addict

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 612
Loc: SE PA
If in a car, simply keep bolt cutters in the trunk to avoid those gate type situation.
_________________________
"I reject your reality and substitute my own..." - Adam Savage / Mythbusters

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#140090 - 07/17/08 06:05 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: thseng]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
The question is, how to proceed when getting by a chain link fence topped by razor wire is a survival imperative?

My shoes and boots are too big to fit into chain link mesh holes, so I have to hit the fence running and try to pull my self over. Not too bad when I was younger and lighter; a challenge now. And what if you or someone you are with is injured or sick?

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#140092 - 07/17/08 06:09 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: wildman800]
Hacksaw
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: wildman800

It is definitely a better idea to adopt the US Navy SEAL atitude of moving like a Ghost and leaving as much of a trail as a Ghost!


Everybody leaves sign...just some more than others.

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#140093 - 07/17/08 06:10 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: dweste]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1177
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Having just built a dog kennel, I know bolt cutters make
quick work of chain link. An 18" harbor freight special
pair weigh 3.5 lbs. They also make fixing
tire chains easy when you need to cut links.

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#140104 - 07/17/08 07:03 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: ]
wildman800 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2846
Loc: La-USA
Very true Hacksaw and the less that you leave, the slower that you are moving, usually. I try to leave as little trail as I can, always, just to build habits.

Some of these "what if's" are taking on the nature of an "offensive campaign" vs trying to get home with as little trouble as possible, as quickly as possible.

What are your thoughts?
_________________________
QMC, USCG (Ret)
The best luck is what you make yourself!

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#140117 - 07/17/08 07:32 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: wildman800]
Hacksaw
Unregistered


I've actually had mantracker training and I think trying to leave no sign is a waste of time. You'd be better of using that time to move at a normal pace to cover as much ground as possible without being obvious.

There are things you can do to make your sign hard to read. Contamination is the worst IMO. Walk where a lot of other people have (or will in the near future...better yet) and your tracks will be obscured by those of others. This can really slow a tracker down as they need to make sure they're following you. The size of print you leave will be an indicator which could seperate your tracks from others in the same area. There are very slick techniques for accurately measuring foot and pace size on the run without having to stop for very long.

The other thing you can do...and it's hard to do because it's not exactly practical...is wear shoes which won't leave a 'signature' print. If the tracker can't identify the tread pattern of your footware he won't have any obvious way to seperate you from other tracks he may find...this can really slow them down (I know it does me). There is a possibility he'll follow the wrong ones too. Trust me...this is way harder than it sounds...I've tried just to see and usually I leave MORE sign. Going barefoot doesn't help because then you're leaving the equivalent of finger prints behind. Wearing footwear like a moccasin can help but isn't fool proof.

Changing your pace and occationally 'hoping' around can mix somebody up too especially if there is a lot of contamination. They'll find you either way but it might slow them down if they can't find your exit path right away.

Also, avoid 'track traps' like muddy patches or sandy soil or water/puddles...stuff that really makes it clear what kind of shoes you have on and can tell the tracker a lot about you.

Most of the mistakes I have made tracking have come from following the wrong set of tracks because I couldn't seperate 2 (or more) sets and just simply picked the wrong ones to follow. That's when you get into behavioral profiling and trying to use other techniques to ID your tracks...like trying to figure out if the tracks are from a male or female, a limp or not, or if the person is tired, how much they weigh. That's advanced stuff which I've only touched the tip of at best.

In the example you provided above (getting on topic again) I'd walk around the fence parallel to it. I wouldn't be 'careful' or run (that will show in your tracks and could give you up). I'd imagine on a farm there's more traffic there than anywhere else. Maybe more on the inside than the outside if lifestock are a factor (they can cover your tracks with their own too). Cutting through a field that has no tracks to speak of will give you away almost as easily as a cut fence or gate chain (though those things will give them a definitive last known position to start cutting from). An experienced sign cutter will pick your path out in seconds and won't need to spend time analysing it...they'll follow it like there's a big red arrow painted on the ground. If you're going to be going through farm country wear the same kind of footwear the farmers do even if that means cowboy boots. If all the tracks are flat leather soles with a square heel, they'll have to slow down to distinguish them to find yours...or better yet won't know which ones are yours in the first place.

It's a pretty scary thing. I didn't realize just how fool proof it is until I started learning it myself.

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#140118 - 07/17/08 07:35 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: ]
Hacksaw
Unregistered


One more thing...don't be seen.

Mantrackers aren't just followers of footprints. Often times a person is found because the tracker had the presence to ask a local 'Did you see anybody go this way recently?'.

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#140119 - 07/17/08 07:37 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: ]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1177
Loc: Channeled Scablands
I remember a search for a couple of kids escaped from the
youth facility in NE Washington state. There was snow on the
ground but melted out around trees. The kids pole vaulted
from tree well to tree well and fooled the juvenile officers
for awhile.

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#140120 - 07/17/08 07:37 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: ]
wildman800 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2846
Loc: La-USA
Very well put Hacksaw.

When tracking someone, I also try to put myself into their shoes. That indicates to me WHERE they may be heading which helps me also look in the right direction to see indications of passage that are not on the ground, but hanging from branches. A bit of hair, cloth, disturbed leaves on low hanging branches, etc.
_________________________
QMC, USCG (Ret)
The best luck is what you make yourself!

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#140122 - 07/17/08 07:40 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: wildman800]
Hacksaw
Unregistered


Your referring to 'high sign'. It's an important part of tracking. People often disturb things without even thinking about what's above their knees. I've even seen people who break off branches from trees as they walk by and don't even realize they're doing it.

When you're looking for somebody who wants to be found it's way easier. Family can even sometimes tell you what kind of boots they are wearing or if they have any conditions that may effect their pace.


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#140129 - 07/17/08 07:54 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: clearwater]
BillLiptak Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/19/07
Posts: 259
Blackhawk sells a set of four ladder rungs that weave thru the fence to form a ladder. No damage to the fence'

-Bill Liptak

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#140131 - 07/17/08 08:13 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: NightHiker]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
Okay, I think that is a possible solution: remove / cut the fence attachement wires on the bottom of a post enough to let the chain link fabric flex to create an opening at the bottom of the fence. That way you do not have to deal with razor wire on top, or a climb that for whatever reason is not practical.

What would be the best tool to accomplish this?


Edited by dweste (07/17/08 08:23 PM)

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#140133 - 07/17/08 08:20 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: dweste]
Hacksaw
Unregistered


The multitool you might already have in your pocket. This is usually done with a heavy wire twisted like a twist tie. If you can't untwist it you can use the file or hard wire cutters to cut it (assuming your tool has those features).

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#140137 - 07/17/08 08:38 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: ]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
Interesting: the barbed wire and chain link fence encounter challenges seem to have at least one remarkably similar solution: remove the wires or staples that fasten the fence material to one or more posts until the wire or fabric flexes enough to allow you to fit through or underneath. This leaves the fence itself relatively intact to do its job for the landowner and, without close inspection, leaves your passage through relatively undetectable.

Bolt cutter not needed.

Good job, folks.


Edited by dweste (07/17/08 08:40 PM)

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#140144 - 07/17/08 09:27 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: dweste]
Hacksaw
Unregistered


Bring zip ties or use your snare wire you could even put it sorta back the way it was without the 'links' to wave in the breeze.

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#140151 - 07/17/08 10:16 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: ]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
Good idea.

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#140155 - 07/17/08 10:43 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: dweste]
red Offline
Member

Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 175
I've crossed more fences than I care to remember. I can almost always find a spot where hundreds of others have already crossed. Dweste, in your case, I think the advise to go round or stay on sidewalks is the wisest. If you are encountering many security fences, you aren't really in the "country".

I don't think I'd even contemplate crossing a security fence unless I had an imminent threat to life and limb right behind me.

Another point about travelling unseen: Do it at night with a quarter moon. Amazing how well your night vision adjusts after 45 minutes. Hole up during the day, move at night. Just like the recon dudes in the marines.
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#140156 - 07/17/08 10:48 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: red]
Hacksaw
Unregistered


Damn me and my impulse buying! I bought the folding bike. It's actually lighter than I thought (but not super light) and more heavily constructed. It's not the most compact (or the prettiest) but they knocked the price down for me...I had to say yes at that point. smile Compared to the next cheapest folding bike in town I saved about 325 bucks.


Edited by Hacksaw (07/17/08 10:48 PM)

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#140158 - 07/17/08 10:58 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: dweste]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
My thought is people who cut fences aren't friendly. You would not be looked upon with good graces by me if you were cutting my fences, especially in an emergency. Climb it, tell me you are taking the short route, if I belive you, I might even be nice and let you fill your water bottles from the pond as I guide you to the gate.
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#140174 - 07/18/08 12:31 AM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: ironraven]
dougwalkabout Offline
Crazy Canuck
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 3219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
I agree with ironraven.

Bolt cutters are too heavy, and too much of a break-and-enter type tool. Both landowners and law enforcement may well take a dim view of someone carrying and using these.

I suspect that in a genuine long-term emergency, cutting a landowner's fence is an invitation to the "bullet dance." Most people who cut fences are up to no good.

That said, a Leatherman will go through two-strand barbed wire nicely. But the tool I would choose is a genuine Vise-Grip. They have a wire cutter that will go through any wire I've encountered -- even hardened wire. The 5" is light and handy, but a 7" gives much better leverage, and the 10" is the chairman of the board. Easy to justify carrying them, to yourself and others, since they have so many uses off the grid. I wouldn't be without one.

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#140176 - 07/18/08 12:56 AM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: dougwalkabout]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
Dudes, the thread has solved the problem. No need for bolt cutters to get through either chain link or barbed wire fences.

That said I will repeat another sentiment posted earlier, if it is your fence or my life, the fence goes. But only in those circumstances.

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#140186 - 07/18/08 02:14 AM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: dweste]
dougwalkabout Offline
Crazy Canuck
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 3219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
My bad. I should have read the thread more closely. Glad you've come to a resolution.
Cheers,
Doug

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#140209 - 07/18/08 06:12 AM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: dougwalkabout]
Chris Kavanaugh Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 3824
Bugging out. Now there is an interesting word. I think of bugs and it's usually ants or bee swarms. So here we have thousands of people piled up on freeways making like bugs while ETS types are doing ninja flips under overpasses and rolling upright in a Weaver Stance with the Glock they told the whole world they owned online,leaving snares in case the mattress police are hot on their trail and swallowing glorified vitamen survival tablets. I tell you, the local Sahara club 4WD thugs got mad when the ranch I was on put up sucker oil pipe fencing. they threw up this rubble ramp faster than the Romans at Massada and roared over in triumph. Funny thing, some other club was already in the field, only they had tiny running lights and didn't move like those little off road quad runners. But then American Buffalo don't distinguish Sierra club from Sahara and the coyotes had an extra cause to laugh that night.Crawls back into my Wiggy bag, sticks the 12 guage barrel out and munches on fruitcake by LED until the crisis is over.

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#140217 - 07/18/08 09:50 AM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: Chris Kavanaugh]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
Ninja flips! Duooh, I knew I forgot one method of going over fences!

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#140252 - 07/18/08 01:48 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: clearwater]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
"...one can get around barb wire fences easily on foot..."

Not in the areas I am familiar with, some of those fences seem to run forever. And many go thru ravines etc that are soooo steep I don't know how they put the thing there in the first place.

I have climbed many a barbed wire fence, wearing full uniform (including $150 pants), and never suffered a rip. Most fences, no matter what kind of posts they used, have a much heaver post (almost a RR tie on some) every hundred feet or so, also at corners. Go to that post, put one hand on the top of the post, and one foot on a strand at a comfortable level. Test the wire and its staple by putting some weight on it. Right next to the post it should be almost movement free. Assuming that it is, stand up on that wire, swing your free leg over, place that foot on another strand, test it, swing the first foot over the top, and down you go. Your gear can be tossed over first, lifted over or dragged under after you are over...
_________________________
OBG

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#140268 - 07/18/08 03:10 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: OldBaldGuy]
adam2 Offline
Addict

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 474
Loc: Somerset UK
I would consider to it prudent to store bolt cutters or similar tools, along with many other tools.
Not certain its a good idea to put them in a BOB though, very heavy, and puts one at risk of arrest.
Breaking into or through someone elses property may perhaps be justified in an emergency, but remember the owner will probably have different views and even in the UK may be armed. In the USA it is probable that they will be armed.

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#140272 - 07/18/08 03:45 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: dweste]
jdavidboyd Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 12/20/06
Posts: 78
Loc: Hudson, FL
Originally Posted By: dweste
Maybe my imagination is running too wild. The scenarios I have thought about so far include:

1. The gang controlling the must-pass intersection behind the barricade of burned out cars, with evidence that the fate of passersby is none too pretty.

2. The government blockade to enforce no-travel restrictions that would force me to remain in an untenable urban environment with exhausted resources and constantly increasing threat of attack.

3. The dog pack, human predators, rising flood waters, or increasing flames on my heels when I encounter the unclimable chain link fence topped by razor wire at the end of a dead end alley, or otherwise preventing my escape.

4.The unclimable chain link fence topped by razor wire that would force me to travel beyond my likely resources to avoid encountering any of the above.


Well, under these circumstances, a pair of bolt cutters could come in very handy.

I think the question is, do you want to carry bolt cutters, on the off chance that you might actually wind up in one of these scenarios, or use that weight/space in your BOB for more useful items?
_________________________
What's so funny 'bout peace, love, and understanding?

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#140302 - 07/18/08 08:38 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: dweste]
MartinFocazio Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 2203
Loc: Bucks County PA
At the fire company, we call our bolt cutters the "Master Key".

I used them yesterday to get through a locked front gate for an alarm system call.

Handy things, even the smallish ones.


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#140307 - 07/18/08 09:21 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: MartinFocazio]
Chris Kavanaugh Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 3824
Shifts into Alfalfa expresssion ( the Little Rascals) of my MPD. ' Oh give me land lots of land 'neath the starry sky above. Doooooon't fence me in......" I'll stop if a few members make immediate ETS online donations.

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#140327 - 07/18/08 11:04 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: MartinFocazio]
KG2V Offline

Veteran

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 1371
Loc: Queens, New York City
Originally Posted By: martinfocazio
At the fire company, we call our bolt cutters the "Master Key".

...snip...


I always thought the "master key" is the gasoline abrasive saw I always see FDNY use - man, those guys cut anything with them - watching them take down roll-up steel grates is fun - or take down a section of iron fence. Saw a kid get impaled on the points of one of those steel fences outside a school - they took down a good sized section of the fence and loaded the kid in the ambulance with about a 3ftx3ft section of fence still attached - according to the news, the kid not only lived, but made a full recovery
_________________________
73 de KG2V
You are what you do when it counts - The Masso
Homepage: http://www.thegallos.com
Blog: http://kg2v.blogspot.com

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#140333 - 07/18/08 11:17 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: MartinFocazio]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
I have a question for you, you being a fireguy. I have seen many a fireguy use that "master key" to open a locked gate, and they ALWAYS cut the lock, not a link in the chain. Sometimes very expensive locks. Is there a reason for that???
_________________________
OBG

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#140338 - 07/19/08 12:05 AM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: OldBaldGuy]
BobS Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 924
Loc: Toledo Ohio
Probably out of habit people naturally go for the lock.
_________________________



You can run, but you'll only die tired.


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#140339 - 07/19/08 12:20 AM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: BobS]
Hacksaw
Unregistered


Locks are hardened...they usually pop once you get through the case hardening as it's very brittle compared to unhardened steel (cheap locks usually more so). Chains can be very springy and hard to cut through...you literally have to get the cutters through all of it.

I lock my motorcycle with overhead crane chain for that reason. It's elastic and the give makes it really hard to cut with bolt cutters.

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#140344 - 07/19/08 12:34 AM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: ]
KG2V Offline

Veteran

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 1371
Loc: Queens, New York City
Originally Posted By: Hacksaw
I lock my motorcycle with overhead crane chain for that reason. It's elastic and the give makes it really hard to cut with bolt cutters.


Yep, crane chain is very hard to cut. I've said before I worked for an overhead crane company back in my salad days, and MOST of the hoists we sold were chain hoists (the thing going the lifting is the hoist, which rides on a trolly, which in turn is often on a bridge, which rode on the rails, and the whole thing is a crane) We used to get the chain delivered in cardboard 55 gal drums. The prefered method of cutting it was a big disk grinder (7 or 9" if I remember right), but we'd use the dinky 4.5" grinders in a pinch. Bolt cutters wouldn't touch it. If we couldn't use a grinder, a cutting torch worked wonders
_________________________
73 de KG2V
You are what you do when it counts - The Masso
Homepage: http://www.thegallos.com
Blog: http://kg2v.blogspot.com

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#140346 - 07/19/08 12:49 AM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: dweste]
samhain Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/30/05
Posts: 598
Loc: Baton Rouge, Louisiana
dweste,

There are an infinite number of scenarios that are impossible to prepare for.

Better to keep it simple and multi functional as possible. Bolt cutters are a one-purpose tool (two if you use them to crack nuts), and not worth the weight.

Life in general is an exercise in risk management. It's usually less risky to walk around a secured area than it is to try and breach it.

Cutting someone's fence is a good way to get shot (i.e. not effective risk management).

I can understand the scenarios that you describe and they are not out of the realm of possibility.

Spend a weekend living in your car or your backyard with your BOB, what did you use, what was a waste of space, what was duplicated? Go for a hike with it.

That'll give you a better idea of what you really need than what you can imagine happening (I can imagine being picked up and rescued by the Hawaiian Tropic Girls who haven't seen a man in months ..... Now I gotta go pack my "special" underwear in my BOB....)


Edited by samhain (07/19/08 12:50 AM)
Edit Reason: grammar correction to keep my hs english teacher from haunting me....
_________________________
peace,
samhain autumnwood

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#140347 - 07/19/08 12:56 AM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: samhain]
BobS Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 924
Loc: Toledo Ohio
Originally Posted By: samhain
I can imagine being picked up and rescued by the Hawaiian Tropic Girls who haven't seen a man in months .....

I had that happen to me yesterday, then I woke up…
_________________________



You can run, but you'll only die tired.


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#140356 - 07/19/08 01:49 AM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: MartinFocazio]
SwampDonkey Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/08/07
Posts: 1268
Loc: Northeastern Ontario, Canada
I agree with the other posters, it is not hard to climb over a normal fence, just look for a supportive brace post or corner (or gate, DUH). Cutting farmers fences makes you very unwelcome, especially if you let his livestock out.

I carry bolt cutters in my work truck now. Once I was racing to meet a helicopter to Heli-attack into a forest fire and the road was blocked by a gate, I used a pulaski to take down the gate but it was not a very clean job on the gate or on the tool.

If I am cutting a chain with a padlock on it I usually cut a link of the chain and replace it with a spare series lock from my truck, that way I may not need to cut the chain again the next time. This also allows me to secure the barrier again after I have gone through.

Mike

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#140370 - 07/19/08 10:37 AM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: samhain]
Art_in_FL Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2432
Originally Posted By: samhain
dweste,

There are an infinite number of scenarios that are impossible to prepare for.

Better to keep it simple and multi functional as possible. Bolt cutters are a one-purpose tool (two if you use them to crack nuts), and not worth the weight.

Life in general is an exercise in risk management. It's usually less risky to walk around a secured area than it is to try and breach it.

Cutting someone's fence is a good way to get shot (i.e. not effective risk management).

I can understand the scenarios that you describe and they are not out of the realm of possibility.


I have been reading this thread and the one about the dogs with a sense of unease. Both smack of unfocused What-ifs that are really not rooted in reality. Sure, to some extent, they tangentially deal with some things that are possible. I have had need to cut barbed wire while hiking and dogs do, sometimes, form packs that can be mildly threatening.

But a Leatherman took care of the barbed wire that had trapped the animal and throwing rocks at the dogs made them decide to go sniff around somewhere else. I had no doubt that I could have fought them off with my walking stick.

I look back over the decades and I have had little need to cut truck sized swaths through unclimbable fences that block my route or fight huge armies of dogs bent on taking me down in wave attacks. It just doesn't happen. Not to the degree anyone would need worry about.

Projecting fear into an exaggerated threat smacks of inexperience and a lack of proportion. Generally fences are there for a good reason and people concerned enough to build an unclimbable fence tend to object when you try to cut it. Also our ancestors handled packs of wolves with tools not much more powerful than sharpened sticks and clubs. When the dust settled humans marched on and dire wolves went extinct. We damn near wiped out modern wolves here in North America. Seems dogs have more to fear from us than the other way round.

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#140378 - 07/19/08 04:19 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: Art_in_FL]
BobS Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 924
Loc: Toledo Ohio
Great post Art.
_________________________



You can run, but you'll only die tired.


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#140386 - 07/19/08 05:34 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: BobS]
Blast Offline
INTERCEPTOR
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3760
Loc: TX
Quote:
I can imagine being picked up and rescued by the Hawaiian Tropic Girls who haven't seen a man in months .....

I had that happen to me yesterday, then I woke up…


I had that happen to me several weeks ago, and I have pictures.

-Blast
_________________________
Foraging Texas
Medicine Man Plant Co.
DrMerriwether on YouTube
Radio Call Sign: KI5BOG
*As an Amazon Influencer, I may earn a sales commission on Amazon links in my posts.

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#140389 - 07/19/08 06:01 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: Blast]
wildman800 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2846
Loc: La-USA
Thanks Blast, for reminding us!!!
_________________________
QMC, USCG (Ret)
The best luck is what you make yourself!

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#140401 - 07/19/08 08:38 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: wildman800]
climberslacker Offline
Youth of the Nation
Addict

Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 603
does that have anything to do with a certain kayaking trip?? smile smile smile


Edited by climberslacker (07/19/08 08:43 PM)
_________________________
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- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
impossible is just the beginning

though i seek perfection, i wear my scars with pride

Have you seen the arrow?


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#140414 - 07/20/08 12:58 AM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: Blast]
samhain Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/30/05
Posts: 598
Loc: Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Originally Posted By: Blast
Quote:
I can imagine being picked up and rescued by the Hawaiian Tropic Girls who haven't seen a man in months .....

I had that happen to me yesterday, then I woke up…


I had that happen to me several weeks ago, and I have pictures.

-Blast


I saw those pictures man!!

Didn't recognize you with the Darth Vader mask on.

Did get a kick out of the "wanna see my lightsaber" line though.....
_________________________
peace,
samhain autumnwood

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#140607 - 07/21/08 04:31 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: dweste]
TeacherRO Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/11/05
Posts: 2574
For me, its too specialized. Around her we just climb over fences or go through the gate.

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#140685 - 07/22/08 12:09 AM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: KG2V]
MartinFocazio Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 2203
Loc: Bucks County PA
Originally Posted By: kc2ixe


I always thought the "master key" is the gasoline abrasive saw I always see FDNY use


The legendary K-12 saw. We have 2 of them, you can cut most anything. The bolt cutters are quicker for locks and such.

You'd also like the Petrogen torch.

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#140686 - 07/22/08 12:11 AM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: OldBaldGuy]
MartinFocazio Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 2203
Loc: Bucks County PA
Originally Posted By: OldBaldGuy
I have a question for you, you being a fireguy. I have seen many a fireguy use that "master key" to open a locked gate, and they ALWAYS cut the lock, not a link in the chain. Sometimes very expensive locks. Is there a reason for that???


Because, um....because....gee, that's what the last guy did, so I guess that's how it's done. I honestly don't know why, but you're right, we always cut the LOCK.

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#140709 - 07/22/08 02:13 AM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: MartinFocazio]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
I am sure that the farmers/ranchers/whatevers that own those locks hate you guys...
_________________________
OBG

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#140715 - 07/22/08 02:41 AM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: OldBaldGuy]
dougwalkabout Offline
Crazy Canuck
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 3219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Thinking further about barbed-wire fences (I built untold miles as a farm kid) ...

If you absolutely must cut a farmer's barbed-wire fence (and it better be life and death) ...

1. The wires are under enormous tension, and it takes a lot of effort to get them that way. Put in at least one more staple into the post on either side, on each wire, preferably catching a barb, to hold tension so that the rest of the fence doesn't sag.

2. Have spare sections of barbed wire ready to make repairs after you pass through. Hint: farmers often leave long sections loose at the corners, to make adjustments or repairs over time.

3. If you cut fences for snowmobiles, quads, recreation or larceny, you deserve what you get. I recommend a year of fence-building over ten miles of forest and bog, in a wet year, with black flies and mosquitoes (the northern air force) in full attendance. Oh, you will wish for death, but death won't come. If you're lucky, some jerk will come along and cut your fences.

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#140804 - 07/22/08 04:12 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: dougwalkabout]
Stu Offline
I am not a P.P.o.W.
Old Hand

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1058
Loc: Finger Lakes of NY State
If you have to cut a fence, make darn sure you know what's on the other side. Some may have animals you just don't want to be the invader of their territory.
_________________________
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#140809 - 07/22/08 04:29 PM Re: Bolt, wire, fence cutter in the BOB? [Re: dougwalkabout]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1177
Loc: Channeled Scablands
No need to cut. As I said before, take out the staples in
several posts, then lower the wire to the ground. Later
replace the staples. As kids (or adults for that matter)
you could do this to cross
large (10 mile wide) spreads with your horse. This was
an unwritten okayed practice with your neighbors. The
fences were to keep animals in, not people out. No one
would have thought to cut the wire and let the cows or sheep
out. That would have gotten you a good ++++.


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