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#139950 - 07/17/08 03:42 AM Re: Dog defense? [Re: BobS]
BrianB Offline

Registered: 07/16/08
Posts: 99
Ah, to each his own, I suppose. I've seen too many dogs ignore .22s to trust one to stop a dog that's in full on attack mode. I've seen them break off and run when shot with heavier calibers.

I suppose could stop a person in my house with a .22 rifle... with a butt stroke to the noggin. laugh

#139951 - 07/17/08 03:43 AM Re: Dog defense? [Re: BobS]
dweste Offline

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
While my mind is reeling as I re-consider for the thousandth time what survival firearms to get, please continue on tactics and strategy for the one dog versus pack of dog scenario.

Then consider addressing another question: Suppose a dog or pack of dogs attacks and you disable it, or some or all of them, by expending much of your bear spray, or whacking them in the head, or kicking them, or whatever - do you just exit the area and hope they do not track you down and cause you to expend more resources hoping to fend them off again?

#139952 - 07/17/08 03:55 AM Re: Dog defense? [Re: dweste]
BrianB Offline

Registered: 07/16/08
Posts: 99
Originally Posted By: dweste

Then consider addressing another question: Suppose a dog or pack of dogs attacks and you disable it, or some or all of them, by expending much of your bear spray, or whacking them in the head, or kicking them, or whatever - do you just exit the area and hope they do not track you down and cause you to expend more resources hoping to fend them off again?

Anyone ever tell you you're a bit of a pessimist? j/k =)

I actually read an account of someone using bear spray to fend off a bear while on an extended trip in bear country. They wondered what they'd do with the next bear, as they only brought one can with them!

That's pretty good food for thought...

The stuff's pretty bulky, if you have the bear cans, so how many people carry a second can?

In my opinion, there are too many variables to really address these scenarios. If you've made a pack of dogs or an individual dog retreat, there's a high chance you won't be confronted again. However...dogs can be vindictive and determined too. In my opinion, if you're confronted by a pack of feral dogs, the best solution to the problem is to kill all of them.

That opens all kinds of cans of worms, though. In a bug out situation: Where's the owner? Will they be armed and vengeful? Are you in a populated area? Where are your bullets going? These are often fast moving targets and your adrenaline may seriously impact your marksmanship. How many hours have you put in with your carry gun? Can you shoot it well under stress?

Avoidance is important. You're ultimately better off avoiding problems if possible. It'd be good to review some quality material on dog behavior, both solitary and pack, and try to absorb all of it that you can.

Oh, I forgot when talking about hiking sticks earlier: I always carry a five foot hickory hiking staff when trail walking. When I pass a person walking their dog, I hold the staff close in to my body, so it doesn't appear threatening to the dog I'm sharing the trail with. I also greet everyone I pass with a cheerful smile and "Hello," so that I don't look like the only nut in the woods with a big weapon-y thing in my hands. (The primary reason I have a staff is because it's useful, both for going down and up hills and for preventing falls on the uneven ground of the trails. It still looks threatening to dogs and to a lot of people who don't use a staff.) I think both of these things prevent a lot of potential problems.

#139953 - 07/17/08 04:00 AM Re: Dog defense? [Re: dweste]
Fitzoid Offline

Registered: 08/23/05
Posts: 289
Loc: WI, MA, and NYC
I honestly don't think you have much chance if a pack of dogs decides to attack you. The damage of one trained dog can be devastating. And military trainers will tell you that you can empty a clip into a trained dog and it still won't let go. Yes, it will die eventually, but I certainly wouldn't want to imagine what shape you'd be in (or in how many pieces).

I don't even want to think about a pack of feral dogs. The trick is getting them not to attack you in the first place. And that's quite the trick. Pepper spray has been suggested, but it's also been noted to provoke attacks (at least with bears).

My strategy would be to avoid dog packs at all costs. Once they mean business, you arms will quickly become useless. I'd slowly walk away, avoiding eye contact, and find a safe perch. Of the many tactics discussed here, one that's been omitted as far as I can tell is punching a dog as hard as you can in the nose. That's what my trainer told me to do to establish dominance over a very alpha dog the first (and only) time she snapped at me. (However, do this at your own risk.)

Wow, this is one morbid thread, as someone mentioned above... grin
"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading." Henny Youngman

#139954 - 07/17/08 04:55 AM Re: Dog defense? [Re: samhain]
red Offline

Registered: 02/24/07
Posts: 175
I'll share my dog stories, few as they are...

I've peppered two charging dogs in my life: A lab and a APBT mix. The spray deterred both attacks. When talking to my pit bull owner friends, they said I was very lucky with the pit because they said "Nothing stops a game pit unless you shoot it."

Talked to one pit owner who got bit by his own dog. He said it was the scariest thing that's happened to him as he felt his hand start to come apart in her mouth. He went for her eyes and gave stern commands. She let go, but not until some pretty bad trauma occurred.

My take...bear spray first liberally with your non-dominant hand, then glock 'em to death as they're trying to see you out of their smarting eyes.

Oh yes, and pray pray pray.

P.S. does anyone know if a feral dog pack ratchets UP the attack if they start losing members or if they split?
When the SHTF, no one comes out of it smelling pretty.

#139955 - 07/17/08 06:08 AM Re: Dog defense? [Re: red]
dweste Offline

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
Well, I guess my bug out stuff just got heavier and more expensive. The bear spray was a candidate anyway because I was acquiring some for some bear country hiking and camping. But a decent hand gun, with all that goes with it, had been far down my list. And steel-toed boots were not on my list at all; I will consider them.

#139957 - 07/17/08 06:59 AM Re: Dog defense? [Re: BobS]
JustinC Offline

Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 48
Loc: New England
The .22 is definitely on the light side. I'm sure 10 rounds would kill the dog eventually, assuming one could hit an attacking dog 10 times. However, an eventual kill is insufficient - a dog can have you on your back in the time it takes to fire half that amount. What is called for is the immediate, permanent cessation of hostile action within the minimum amount of time possible. Remember, as with a human, you may only get one shot to bet your life on. I think something in the 9mm/.357 category is the prudent minimum for man or beast.

FWIW, a drill we used in the military to simulate defending oneself against a dog went like this: take a two-liter soda bottle and attach it to 50' of 550 cord. While facing in a safe direction (and observing all applicable firearms safety rules) stand with the cord ran between your legs on the ground. Now have a buddy pull the cord, dragging the bottle toward you as quickly as possible, and try to engage it. The bottle roughly approximates a dog's vitals, and the movement closely approximates that of a real dog. We would do this drill occasionally with rifle, shotgun, and pistol, and it was surprisingly difficult.

#139959 - 07/17/08 11:03 AM Re: Dog defense? [Re: JustinC]
BillLiptak Offline

Registered: 12/19/07
Posts: 259
I'll offer my , bear spray at range. Pre-emptively. Get the bugger before he decides he wants to attack. If its a pack, (in addition to praying and loading your pants ;)) try to determine the alpha and get it. If it doesn't want to attack, the others hopefully won't either. Hiking staff-as others suggetsed use as a spear. Any "swinging" attacks should be short arc, much akin to a stick check in hockey. (Not a slap shot or golf swing). For a firearm I would suggest a taurus judge in .410 caliber. I believe it is five shot revolver, might be six. Design is forgiving of exposure of the elements, has no safety to fumble when panicing/adrenalized. Load the first two chambers with .410 shot the remaining with .45 long colt. With the first two rounds you can dispatch snakes and have a better chance of hitting a charging dog, or hitting mutliple dogs at range. The .45 LC is a cowboy round, slightly underpowered compared to .45 acp, but more than enough to do the job IMHO. Consider getting two soccer shin guards and attaching then to your weak side forearm. Consider the placement, relative to the angle of attack. You want them top and bottom of the bite angle.
BobS, I have seen feral dog packs right here in Tampa, Florida. Had them pin some female employees in their cars. Yelling didn't bidge them. A can of dented peas to the ribs (while standing safely on the loading dock) eventually did.

-Bill Liptak

#139961 - 07/17/08 11:49 AM Re: Dog defense? [Re: BillLiptak]
benjammin Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4018
Loc: Anchorage AK
Y'all think inside the box too much.

Most dogs are stronger than us humans, pound for pound, but lack the leverage and dexterity we have. The best approach I've found for subduing individual dogs without a weapon is to grapple them to the ground, get your weight on them, and stay on top. Yes, you will get bit, you are going to anyways, but by using your weight and dexterity you will gain an advantage that will soon have him succombed. All dogs have a weak spot, it is the dimple between their neck and their collarbone. There is an unprotected nerve plexus there, similar to our bracchial plexus. If you apply pressure in that dimple area with fingers, elbow, a stick, whatever, it causes them unbearable pain, more perhaps than even going for the eyes. If you don't get the dogs down and pinned then they will bite and flail and do a lot more damage.

For packs of dogs, I've found fire to be another suitable deterrent. A can of WD-40 and a bic will cast one heck of a nice flame in a broad cone out to as much as 15 feet. Dog fur burns pretty easily, and if he catches on fire, he's going to be distracted enough to not want to continue the fight much. Once they realize they are burning, they generally take off running. Bears don't seem to like fire that much either.

Ben, who grew up as a pyromaniac.
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

#139967 - 07/17/08 12:57 PM Re: Dog defense? [Re: benjammin]
dweste Offline

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
Okay, Vulcan dog disabling grip and improvised flamethrower added to the list.

The importance of figuring out the alpha dog has been mentioned. Why is that important, how do you figure out which is the alpha, and having figured it out what do you do with that information?


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