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#13657 - 03/07/03 01:02 AM Re: Altoids Tin
aardwolfe Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/22/01
Posts: 923
Loc: St. John's, Newfoundland
Oh, boy, I'm sorry - I should have known better. I didn't mean to start a war. <img src="images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

But let's look at your statements - why on earth shouldn't the rent-a-cops let card-carrying Al Qaeda members board the plane carrying an ice-pick? Seriously? What's he gonna do with it?

"they killed thousands on 911 with $2 box cutters"? Big deal. I could kill tens of thousands with my finger - if they'd sit still and let me. Do you know how much warning the passengers on the fourth flight had? 35 minutes - that's how late the plane was in taking off. The 35 minutes spelt the difference between the hijackers crashing it into the White House, and crashing it into an uninhabited forest.

The weapon the hijackers used on September 11 wasn't boxcutters - it was surprise. Nobody expected it. (Why, I don't know. In hindsight, it was inevitable.) The problem with surprise is that, unless your enemy is terminally stupid, it's a weapon that can only be used once.

I've pointed out several times, and so have others, that you can still buy glass bottles inside the security perimeter. A broken bottle is a much deadlier and scarier weapon than a $2 boxcutter. But nobody's tried to repeat the Sept. 11 attacks using broken bottles - why not? Because they'd get their asses handed to them by the passengers.

What could a hijacker do with an ice-pick nowadays? He might be able to kill a couple of passengers, but again, so what? He could do a better job in a shopping mall in Boise, and he'd stand a better chance of getting away. Why does it become a national security issue just because it happens on an airplane in flight?

Look at El Al - 31 years to the month before the WTC attacks, two Palestinian hijackers tried to take over an El Al airliner. And they weren't armed with boxcutters - they had guns and bombs. One flight attendant was shot five times (but survived). Wanna know what happened?

The pilot, Captain Uri Bar-Lev, warned the Air Marshals to fasten their seatbelts, then he pulled a maximum negative-G manoeuver which threw the hijackers at the ceiling. (At negative 4-G in an airliner, it's equivalent to being dropped on your head from 12 feet up, and you have less than a third of a second to react.) One hijacker died, the other was knocked unconscious and woke up in handcuffs.

El Al pilots lock themselves in the cabin before the passengers board, and they don't come out until the passengers have deplaned. El Al won't say whether they carry guns in the cabin.

Most El Al Flight Attendants are ex-military and have combat training. You pull an ice pick on that cute 5'2" brunette who served your coffee and she'll probably feed it to you point first.

Wanna know what's so great about that type of security? NOBODY EVEN NOTICES IT'S THERE UNLESS THEY GET HIJACKED.

The security that's been implemented in North America is not even bad security - it's ugly security. It's obnoxious, it's in-your-face, it's all for show. It's a knee-jerk reaction that was never properly thought out. Somebody went "Weapons bad, 2-hour line-ups good" and never considered that those 2-hour line-ups may kill more innocent people than the hijackers did on Sept. 11.
"The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled."

#13658 - 03/07/03 02:31 AM Re: Altoids Tin

I like you on your soapbox, you look all regal and such haha.

LMAO!! I literal started laughing out load... my wife's like "what's so funny." I actually got in trouble cause I was supposed to listening to her at the time! But I DO kinda look like Henry VIII in profile. <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anything sharp like a knife? OK, now we're getting reasonable... and now we're talking about common sense. Which is exactly the point of my original post on this subject. But where do you draw the line even there? You gonna confiscate my non-locking, non-springloaded Swiss Army Tinker with the 3" blade? Knitting needles? A nail file? Just the metal kind, or how about a cheap emery board with a cuticle tip?

Men have carried pocket knives and grandmothers have knitted for generations. When we are so frightened by the terrorists that we change our whole collective lifestyle in the name of "security", haven't we already capitulated to the terrorists to some degree?

I am very worried that my whole country is being turned into a police state, bit by bit. Today they scrutinize me when I get on a plane. Tomorrow, will I have to go through a police checkpoint just so I can drive into work from the suburbs? And every time I hear the term "Department of Homeland Security" I get that quesy feeling in the pit of my stomach, like when I'm about to rappel off a 200' verticle jump. Hopefully, its not going to be fatal but it sure gives you pause.

Got long winded again, sorry! <img src="images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

#13659 - 03/07/03 02:43 AM Re: Altoids Tin

Leave your weapons or walk your choice.

You are absolutely right. The airlines are private firms and they can make the rules on their private property. So I seek alternate transportation whenever possible. I've cancelled business trips that I've suddenly decided could be accomplished via internet/phone/conference call.

Now I've only got one problem with "playing by their rules". Where does my government come off taxing my money away from me, and then giving it to them? If I'm choosing not to play, why does the goverment keep anteing up with my money?

#13660 - 03/07/03 02:45 AM Re: Altoids Tin

Hear, Hear!!

Common sense isn't yet dead! <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

#13661 - 03/07/03 05:07 AM Re: Altoids Tin
Neanderthal Offline
newbie member

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 130
Loc: Pennsylvania
Aardwolfe : Very well stated !!! Surprise allowed the terrorists to succeed. Now that such a possibility is recognized, it's unlikely the passengers will allow an unobstructed reoccurence, military training or lack thereof.


#13662 - 03/07/03 03:49 PM Re: Altoids Tin
aardwolfe Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/22/01
Posts: 923
Loc: St. John's, Newfoundland
Just witness what happened to that pathetic doofus who tried to set fire to his shoes. <img src="images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
"The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled."

#13663 - 03/07/03 03:57 PM Re: Altoids Tin

The only reason we are calling him pathetic is that he couldn't get the bomb wick to light. If the bomb was designed better he would have succeeded.
The pasenger and crew subdued him after minutes of him trying to light the bomb. It was nothing the passengers and crew did that saved the plane but rather faulty bomb design.


#13664 - 03/08/03 06:34 AM Re: Altoids Tin
Chris Kavanaugh Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 3824
I had a distant cousin join the I.R.A. He proudly sent a photo of his American inspired sawed off shotgun.The chunkhead cut off the wrong end <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Extremist groups of all persuasions have one inate fault and failing : They attract extremists.

#13665 - 03/08/03 01:50 PM Re: Altoids Tin - sort of

Best rant I've seen in a long time. The airport zero tolerance rules that occasionally defie common sense are there because everyone's rear end is on the line up the chain. Behind the scenes common sense security is worthless in a political world where plenty of blame is still being tossed around over 9-11. We've got too many extremists in our political parties that don't give a darn about what's good for America. If you want to find a really good soapbox for the average citizen to stand on, get involved in a local political party executive committee. It doesn't require lots of money - just time and patience. Your voice will be heard. And maybe you'll be able to take pictures of your kids with Mayor Rudy Giuliani like I did - priceless. Regards, Keys

#13666 - 03/09/03 04:13 PM Re: Altoids Tin

Arn't you suposed to cut off both ends of the shotgun so you can use it almost like a pistol?

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