Today my #2 son managed to have a bee fly into his "Crocks" style shoe and get stung. He seemed to be in a lot of pain when I walked over to see what the fuss was about. The stinger was sticking in his instep. It was to small for my fat fingers so I scraped it out with my pocket knife.

My pack was nearby, so I wipped out the Extractor, put on the smallest cup, pulled out the plunger, positioned it on the bite and pushed the plunger down.

Immediately several drops of clear liquid accumulated in the cup. After about 30 seconds he stopped complaining about the sting and started conplaining about the suction, so I pulled the plunger back out and took it off. I thanked him for helping me test the Extractor. In another minute, he was running around playing again.

So I guess it worked.

Next we try it on snakebites...

good luck getting a volunteer for that!
Glad it worked.

Very nice! The Sawyer Extractor is one hard device to find real-world results on… mostly because of the point MDiana brings up: no volunteers. It is nice to see that this thing actually can work as advertised.

I had the same results once with an insect bite. I'll pass on the snakebite tho, next time I am around rattlers they will be Mojave Greens...

I've heard mixed opinions on using it on a snakebite... Nice to know it worked well for a bee sting.

My theory as far as snake bites go is, what can it hurt? It is not like you are using an old Cutter Snakebite kit, slicing a couple of X's into yourself (or whoever). If the Sawyer doesn't get all/any of the venom out, at least it hasn't done any further damage. Hopefully I will never have to find out for real...

It's nice to know it works as advertised. I bought one just because my dad is badly allergic to insect stings.

Mojave Green -- you'll want something just in case. I wonder if the time delay before onset of serious symptoms from a Venom A bite is due to time required for the two subunits to interact. I imagine that removing some of the venom with the Sawyer Extractor works may buy some additional time and may help the antivenin. It can't hurt can it?

I would hazard a guess that the time delay is more likely the result of the neurotoxin getting to where it would do some damage. If you get bit in the arm, it probably isn't noticable if your sense of vibration or temperature is affected, as much as when suddenly your muscles stop working. Different nerves are different sizes as well, which may affect the speed of effects.

Just an educated SWAG.... (but hopefully it sounded like GOOD bs!)

Could be, just as good a swag as mine. I just got the impression the two subunits got together like a binary to make the really bad form of neurotoxin in Venom A. But now that reread it, the mixing probably occurs before the bite. That said, using a Sawyer Extractor to remove as much of it as possible can't hurt.

I'm a Wilderness First Responder and in the latest curriculum the Sawyer extractor is no longer recommended for snake bite; recent research studies showed that it had no positive effect, could damage tissues, and delayed getting to the best course of action - which is immediate evacuation for treatment. (For insect stings, still OK to use, though not always effective.)

There's a "wrap" treatment for elapid bites (coral snakes and all kinds of tropical snakes not found here) that shows some promise - but evacuation with elevation of the bitten limb if possible is still the way to go for those and for all pit viper bites.

(Oh - and definitely no "cut and suck" treatments - those have been out for years as they cause damage, expose the wound to further chance of infection, and get very little venom out!)

http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0196064403008138

A bit of science to back up bmisf

Too bad too. I always thought of it as a suitable 'life over limb' tool for when immediate evacuation isn't possible.

I guess when you consider how deep you cna be injected by snake fangs when compared to a bee for example, it makes a bit of sense.

Sorry about the gross factor on this but have been curious for years. I have never owned an Extractor. But those of you that have do you think it would be very effective on the occasional clogged pore (zit)? Are the cups malleable enough to fit the contour of say the crease of your nose?

Again sorry for the gross but very curious.

Thanks

That's an interesting study, however I wish they took a few more data points.

During the study Extractor was applied after a 3 minute delay. Therefore, the conclusion should be edited to read (bold added by me):

This begs the question of what the results would be for shorter delays.

My personal protocol for snakebite in the wilderness is to apply the Extractor as soon as the scene is safe - if it will not slow me down.

If I'm bit on the foot while solo, I'm heading straight for the nearest road while calling for help while I can still walk. If I stop to take my boot off it might mean the difference between making it to help or not - I might not even be able to get the boot back on.

"...you'll want something just in case..."

We keep a sharp eye out, watch where we place our hands and feet, and a 2" .38 with shot shells. Where we "work" in AZ has marginal or less cell service, no government radios that work worth a darn, and a 30 min drive to the nearest hospital. Being just over the river from CA (where all of the services are) just makes it worse...

Just playing with mine, and trying to remember how hard it was to pop a zit, my guess is that it won't have enough suction to do the job. But that is just a guess...

Not taking off your shoe is a great point. If you take off your shoe, the chances of you getting it back on are very slim. This can be the case with even a simple sprain. You'd be better off cutting your shoe to expose the wound or, as was mentioned, moving quickly while you still could (if that were of benefit), or wrapping your foot in the prescribed way with your shoe still on.

OBG

Thanks for the info/opinion

Cameron

I've tried to use it on zits before, for the hell of it, and wasn't impressed. It often wouldn't even break the head of the zit. Opening the zit first resulted in a minor, incomplete drainage and a bit of a hickey.

Maybe if I built a shop vac adapter for it...

http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0196064403008138

A bit of science to back up bmisf

Perhaps it is a bit of science, but the test seems to have left out something that could be important. Rattlesnake venom contains strong anticoagulants. We are, after all, talking about the extraction of fluids and any coagulation of blood could certainly hinder that process. The radioactively tagged fake venom should have the same or similar anticoagulants.

Further, tests should have been done at 1 and 2 minute intervals and varying depths as well.

It may be science, but but it doesn't seem to be particularly good science to me.

+1 to what bmisf is saying. I took a Wilderness First Aid course last year. They advised us that any suction was ineffectual and could actually make things worse. There really wasn't much that one could do in the field for a snake bite victim, just clean the wound, cover the wound with a sterile dressing, keep the victim as calm as possible, and evacuate ASAP. Antivenom is really the only effective means of treatment, which is not especially good for those of us who like to wander "off the beaten track." Perhaps yet another really good reason to carry a PLB?

It's a valid point that the test cited has some flaws, but I wonder if that particular study is what the "no suction" advice is based on. Is that the only study out there? Did that study result in the "no suction" recommendation? I'm not saying the study isn't relevant, but it's a least worth asking what other factors were included in the "no suction" recommendation.

"...elevation of the bitten limb if possible..."

Elevation? Isn't that just going to help any venom flow toward the heart faster???

IIRC, we were instructed to keep the extremity below the level of the heart, but maybe elevation would reduce the blood flow and thus the rate of propagation of the venom?

Elevation is used to slow bleeding so as to assist the coagulation process. Elevation above the heart's level.

I know that I was taught to keep the limb below heart level as much as possible. Elevation to help slow bleeding. But then I have been out of the loop for a while, and medicine is changing all the time, that is why doctors have a "practice"...

Heck, if you get bit by a deadly snake, just cut the problem limb off, that will stop the flow of poison to the rest of the body...

lol. Now why didn't I think of that.

My apologies; the recommendation is to keep the bite at approximately heart level - I can no longer edit my original post (which I'd love to do to make sure it's accurate). The idea is to balance minimizing swelling and venous flow.

Here's the update from the school I trained with:

http://www.nols.edu/wmi/curriculum_updates/archive/041105_sawyer.shtml

Good update. NOLS certainly has a lot of credibility.

This little bit is a bit disconcerting. If one is miles into the wilderness, carrying someone out is going to be tough, particularly in steep, brushy, snow-covered, or other difficult terrain. A big group would be helpful inasmuch as you could rotate the carriers to prevent exhaustion, but I ususally hike with one or two other guys, hardly a group big enough to have effective rotation.

I'd definitely be pulling out my PLB, particularly if I were multiple days away from the nearest trailhead.

I agree. That the study has some flaws doesn't mean there isn't other good information out there to recommend against using the Sawyer extractor. I've read varying accounts on the effectiveness of the device. I wonder if some of the variables I mentioned are factors in that.

As for the whole circulation question, one of the things I read some time ago made the point that letting the poison circulate has the potential benefit of dilution. The more the poison is allowed to spread and dilute, the weaker its effect in those areas to which it has spread. The reality may simply be that for every person and bit combination that somewhat different treatments may be optimal.

According to link provided, NOLS seems to be saying that the unclear benefits and the 2004 study - the one I pointed out flaws in - are the reasons for their shift in advice. So they don't seem to be really adding anything to the debate and they failed to note what I would think would be obvious criticisms of the tests that were done.

http://www.nols.edu/wmi/curriculum_updates/archive/041105_sawyer.shtml

I find it a shame that we really don't have good solid information on whether the device is really useful. Seems like a coin toss to me. Probably best to wear snake gators.

Still I think its good to dispel myths on treating snake bites as they come up. I polled some Tenderfoot Scouts during a basic First Aid session a while ago, 75% thought they would surely die from any snake bite. One suggested the old cut cross-hatches into the bite and attempt to suck out the venom, the others basically were prepared to pray for the poor hiker to meet their maker. Now I realize this is very region-specific, the west side of the Cascades doesn't have any venomous snakes at all, but you have to work really hard to get the the Western and diamondback rattlers on the other side of the mountains to try to bite you at all, and even if they did, basic precautions should make the bite treatable and definitely survivable. NOLS advice works really well out here - supplement it with good sense advice, like making noise as you walk, carry a stick or pole to stir your surroundings, wear boots and gaiters in snake country, and don't put your hand where it doesn't belong. I have more often stepped over rattlers on a cold day than encountered ones that were excited enough to announce their presence.

Absolutely. The problem is that it isn't clear whether or not the Sawyer device's effectiveness should be considered as a myth. Further, uncritically accepting studies like the one cited seems to work against the whole notion of fostering good information. That said, it hardly invalidates NOLS as a source of good information. For me it just drives home the point that you can't simply rely on one source. You need to investigate on your own. Fortunately, the internet is a great resource for that.

I have a Sawyer extraction kit, but I'm now uncertain as to whether or not I should use it should I get bit. I'm on the fence on this now. Given that I could apply it very quickly, I might still give it a go. If more time has elapsed, I'll be less inclined.

I do thin, however, that I'll add an ACE bandage to my kit so as to be able to make the loose compress described elsewhere. But mostly, I'll just continue to be careful and try to avoid the bite to begin with.

and some gloves if you plan to be gathering firewood, moving duff to clear a sleep site, etc.

The problem I have with snake gaiters is that most of them are so stiff and heavy that they'd make walking unpleasant and laborious. The brand I've heard good things about, Turtleskin, look like good stuff but they're a tad pricey.
http://www.turtleskin.com/Hunting-Clothing.aspx

Hikin_Jim, I had bought a set of these from Cabelas and although I haven't field tested them yet, I do have them in my pack and walked around the yard with them but haven't really walked a trail with them but they do seem comfortable with me so far. Check them out and see what you think. I do always carry a Sawyer Extractor kit with me as well and will use it if I do get bit because I do not think any harm will happen if I do use it and even if it does or doesn't work at least if it gets even a trace of venom out, it's better than nothing at all. Either way I know I'm screwed unless I carry antivenin with me (which is impractical and expensive due to refrigeration) and I I having seen any true feedback on the stun gun shock therapy much less having the balls enough to shock the venom out. So to minimize the bite chances I went with the Gators and use a stick when walking around and hope they will warn me when near.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templa...s&noImage=0

Hmm. Now, these look interesting -- and they're about half the price. Are you going to post a "field report" after you've actually used them in the field? I'd be interested in how effectively they stay on, how they affect (if they do) your walking, and any comments on durability, weight, etc.

I can if you want Jim, it may be a while though, I'm going on a trip next week out of country and when I get back I have to go straight back to work but as soon as I can get back on schedule when I get back, I'll head back out on the trail and give you feed back if you want. I'll try to get back out there as quickly as I can.

Don't forget to get bitten by a rattlesnake to test the gaiters' effectiveness...

All in the name of science of course.

John E

Those seem a little pricey to me. But then, I am cheap. I have a pair of el cheapo "cordura" (for lack of a better term) gaitors that I suspect would really slow down a snakes fangs. In my younger days I used to wear USGI WWII canvas leggings for snake protection when dove and quail hunting. Luckily, I have never had to test either of them...

Ha, ha, it's always in the name of science, what better way to test them. No pain, no gain.

OBG, I use to have a pair of those Leggins from my dads old military days, but I always questioned if they worked back then.

That would be great, if it's not too much trouble.

It stand to reason that gaiters do some good - when they can't escape, most snake strikes are below the knees, about 3 feet in front of them. Gaiters protect basically to knee height, and mine anyway ($25 REI version) are made of 400-500 denier cordura, which would take a heck of a bite to make it through to my skin. If I'm wearing gaiters over ankle length pants, even less likely a snake bite will make it through.

Lono, are your gaiters designed to be snake gaiters or are they more "general purpose" gaiter that hikers and such use?

They are general purpose hiking gaiters, similar to Outdoor Research Crocs. I live West of the Cascades, sometimes hike in the East Cascades where the rattlers dwell - for the environments I hike through I've never thought to buy special snake gaiters. Coral snakes, hunting through swamps etc - I might be a believer though.

Hmm. I wonder. Of course "general purpose" gaiters would be of some help, but would thy resist a strike by a rattler? The rattlers teeth might go through it; they are very sharp.

Anyone have further thoughts on this?

No trouble at all Jim, I'd be glad to.

To be fair, 500-denier cordura is no match for ballistic nylon, which snake gaiters tend to made from. Its a matter of deflection and stopping a snake from full force impact with your shin, preventing full envenomation. Personally I'm prepared to be bit at some point, but hoping the little feller doesn't give me a good dose. I'll walk out of my hike and get to a hospital. I may be excited, but its best if I can stay calm. I probably won't die regardless. If you're really serious about not being bit (below the knee), get some snake gaiters. As I said, for my environment of mostly running away from me snakes, and very little local history of snake bites on humans without some alcohol involved, I'll go with the cordura gaiters.

Disclaimer: I don't work for any manufacturer or seller of gaiters...

GOTCHA. My situation in So. Cal. may be a little different. I do hiking out in the desert sometimes. Snake city, baby.

But good thought regarding prevention of full envenomation.

On a side note to as well Jim, read some of the comments on them as well on there web site, 38 people checked them out and 1 guy took a hit from a rattler on them.

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http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templa...requestid=71425


5 out of 5 5 out of 5
Great Save Snake Guardz!!!!!!!!, May 16, 2008
By Snakebitnnomo from Oklahoma

"Hunting quail in West Tx last year was wearing snake guardz when 4.5 ft rattler tried to make a snack of my calf! I knew I'd been hit. Gaiter did exactly what it was supposed to. The snake even looked a little stunned before I shot it. Thanks Cabela's and the makers of this product. Cool, Lightweight and Snake bite proof. Remember to twist the top strap once and it won't work loose when your hunting."

lol, ya gotta love that.

Thanks, good thoughts.

I've been thinking about all the venomous snakes I have seen in my life and I can't really consider them much of a threat. When I was 17, I was sent off for the summer with my cousin to work on a ranch in eastern New Mexico. As we were being dropped off by my uncle, the rancher pulled up in his truck, unloaded a decapitated 5' western diamondback and proceeded to tell us that rattlesnakes were a big problem on the ranch. My cousin and I sort of rolled our eyes thinking this would be the only snake we would see all summer.

Naturally, over the next 2 weeks, I saw a rattlesnake a day. I rode over 3 different diamondbacks on horseback and once drove a small herd of cattle over the snake before my horse walked right over it. That entire summer, I never saw one of these snakes strike at us, cattle or horses. More recently, a 3' western diamondback was curled up beneath my office's outdoor card-reader. Not seeing the snake, I walked right up, held my card to the reader and opened the door only to notice the snake when the receptionist's screaming started to make sense. I know there are exceptions to this -- the aforementioned rancher claimed to have sprinted for 100 yards with a snake attached to his chaps at thigh level -- but I believe that unless you make an effort to mess with the snake, it's going to want to avoid you.

Truer words about snakes have never been written than these.

"but I believe that unless you make an effort to mess with the snake, it's going to want to avoid you."

Thanks Yuccahead.

John E

Well, studies or not, I'm using my Sawyer Extractor. The 30 seconds that it takes to use it is worth the effort, IMO.

The article below sums up the risks pretty well I believe. I have an extractor but doubt I will ever use it. And if space becomes an issue, I doubt I will carry it. The chances of getting bitten are just too small. On average, 80 people in the US die from lightning strikes each year. The average number of deaths from snake bites in the US is 8-12. There are some 8,000 snakebites in the US every year so a little better than 0.1% of these are fatal and most snake bites are either inflicted on young males whose blood is raging with alcohol along with testosterone or on those that think working at a rattlesnake roundup is a swell idea.

One day, I may step on a rattler and pay the price but given the small odds and the suspect benefits of an extractor, not having an extractor with me isn't going to bother me.


http://health.usnews.com/articles/health/healthday/2008/06/06/with-summer-comes-snake-bites.html

Thanks! That puts things into perspective.