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#133121 - 05/17/08 05:14 AM Re: Airways? [Re: OldBaldGuy]
climberslacker Offline
Youth of the Nation
Addict

Registered: 09/02/07
Posts: 603
Originally Posted By: OldBaldGuy
"...Oral airways can be easily learned - just a few minutes..."

Indeed it can. Probably a bigger question would be the legallity of using one if not properly trained and CERTIFIED...


Well thats were the question comes up! What level of certification do you learn oral airways? I know we didn't even learn of them in my first aid class, which i'm getting my re-cert this year in(and CPR)
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#133123 - 05/17/08 06:39 AM Re: Airways? [Re: OldBaldGuy]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 1903
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: OldBaldGuy
"...Oral airways can be easily learned - just a few minutes..."

Indeed it can. Probably a bigger question would be the legallity of using one if not properly trained and CERTIFIED...

You don't have to be certified to use an oral airway. They are not considered invasive (unless things have changed significantly over the last 20 some-odd years). Similar to supporting someones broken arm in a sling. You don't need certification for that. And in fact, it takes more training and skill to properly sling an arm than to insert an oral airway. I remember teaching oral airways and bag-valve-masks in classes I used to instruct. Red Cross CPR and Basic First Aid. IIRC both of these classes were taught together, 8 hours a day for five days. Nobody ended up being certified for anything. They got a "course completion card" that I signed and gave to the students after the class was over.

I remember learning the EOA and EGTA at the EMT-Basic level, and then endotracheal intubation at the Paramedic level. These training levels do involve certification at the state level, and optional registration at the national level (I did the registrations, but IIRC it was an optional step - maybe not, I can't remember the details anymore).

[edit]Also, at the EMT-Basic and Paramedic levels you cannot "practice" on your own, you must have a "physician adviser" who takes responsibility for you. Your physician adviser determines what you can and cannot do, subject to state imposed limitations, and whether you can do these things via standing orders or require a direct order. Typically, an off-duty Paramedic can't do any of the invasive procedures unless their physician adviser is willing to go to bat and cover for them. Few would be willing to do this, in my experience.[/edit]


Edited by haertig (05/17/08 06:46 AM)

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#133125 - 05/17/08 09:42 AM Re: Airways? [Re: haertig]
JIM Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 1029
Loc: The Netherlands
Here you go: http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27798


A nasal airway is LESS difficult to insert than a oral airway, but both could get you in trouble really quickly.

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#133128 - 05/17/08 12:41 PM Re: Airways? [Re: haertig]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
May be a regional thing. When I was trained as an EMT, part of the training was in oral airways. Out of a department with about 5000 officers, only the EMT's could insert airways. Kind like what you said in your edit. But I am only familiar with CA, other states may let anyone stick an airway in...
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#133129 - 05/17/08 01:32 PM Re: Airways? [Re: climberslacker]
samhain Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/30/05
Posts: 598
Loc: Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Originally Posted By: climberslacker
Yes, i am familiar with the good sameritan law, along with others such as abandonment. It is hard for me sometimes because a lot of these classes are "15 and above" and im only 13 but probably have the maturity level of at least a 15 year old...god I hate insurance laws!


Yeah. I understand your frustration.

The older someone is chronologically doesn't always equate with emotional or mental maturity.

I know plenty of 40+ year old adolescents (having been accused of being one myself at times).

But the general pattern of behavior is consistent enough as to give us some "guidelines" when someone of a certain age is "supposed" to be able to handle certain tasks/knowledge/other stuff.

Welcome to reality; where the rest of us are held captive by those that need a label on their coffee cup thats says "warning contents are hot".

Do the best you can with what you have and that's all any of us can do. Your heart's in the right place.




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#133149 - 05/17/08 08:15 PM Re: Airways? [Re: samhain]
Lono Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/19/06
Posts: 1013
Loc: Pacific NW, USA
I don't think the responders read his post closely enough - he's putting together the FAK for his (Boy Scout) Troop. I've never heard of any Troop with an airway kit, despite possible training by one or two adults or patrol leaders to maybe use one. Troop kits tend to have medical supplies for Scouts and adult leaders with general first aid training. Would you want the airway to stay in the FAK after you move on from Scouts in a few years?

The answer is no, don't include an oral airway in your troop FAK.

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#133153 - 05/17/08 09:06 PM Re: Airways? [Re: bsmith]
Paragon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/21/07
Posts: 231
Loc: Greensboro, NC
Originally Posted By: bsmith
i'm sure your heart is in the right place.

one of the first rules of medicine is "do no harm". and there's great potential for doing more harm than good in the hands of the untrained.

Reasonable advice to keep in mind, although that said, I maintain a NPA (Naso-Pharyngeal-Airway), OPA (Oral-Pharyngeal-Airway), Combitube (similar to a cuffed endotracheal tube), and a cricothyrotomy (emergency tracheotomy) kit in my GSW/trauma bag.

That said, I realize the likelyhood of me ever needing any of these items is extremely remote (and clearly beyond my CPR/AED/WFASRM certification) although I can think of very few things that would be worse than watching helplessly as a close friend or loved one suffocates due to a traumatic injury.

An cricothyrotomy is clearly the most invasive procedure listed above, yet there are numerous reported instances of cricothyroidotomies having been performed successfully by untrained individuals using scissors, hunting knives, razor blades, broken glass, and even the jagged edge of a lid from a tin can. There is even one case I know of where a suffocating 55 year old man performed a cricothyrotomy on himself with a steak knife (and this was actually the second time that he had successfully done it to himself).

An additional case for having some or all of these items in a FAK would be the instance where a trained medical professional (doctor, nurse, or EMT) is on-site and available to help someone, but does not actually have the necessary items available.

While the risk of injuring someone further while attempting to render first aid is always a possibility, sometimes it is the best/only option. While it is always advisable to stabilize/immobilize an individual with a possible spinal cord injury, I'd like to think that very few of us would actually stand around watching an unconscious victim burn to death in a vehicle accident because we were afraid we'd harm them by pulling them from the fire.

Jim
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#133154 - 05/17/08 09:53 PM Re: Airways? [Re: Paragon]
bsmith Offline
day hiker
Addict

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 577
Loc: ventura county, ca

Quote:
That said, I realize the likelyhood of me ever needing any of these items is extremely remote (and clearly beyond my CPR/AED/WFASRM certification) although I can think of very few things that would be worse than watching helplessly as a close friend or loved one suffocates due to a traumatic injury.

something tells me you are older than the asker (13yrs). and that you have more experience than him too (CPR/AED/WFASRM certification).

he's asking for his boy scout troop-mates. and who's going to train them?

Quote:
An cricothyrotomy is clearly the most invasive procedure listed above, yet there are numerous reported instances of cricothyroidotomies having been performed successfully by untrained individuals using scissors, hunting knives, razor blades, broken glass, and even the jagged edge of a lid from a tin can.

there's been discussion here that boy scout leaders have a hard time with the scouts carrying knives, let alone a crico set.

Quote:
An additional case for having some or all of these items in a FAK would be the instance where a trained medical professional (doctor, nurse, or EMT) is on-site and available to help someone, but does not actually have the necessary items available.

why not give 'em iv setups, epi and bicarb amps too?

ok, so maybe that's overboard, but IMHO you have to draw the line somewhere. and IMHO airways is a good place to start. when age-appropriate, ok.

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#133156 - 05/17/08 11:15 PM Re: Airways? [Re: bsmith]
Paragon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/21/07
Posts: 231
Loc: Greensboro, NC
Originally Posted By: bsmith
something tells me you are older than the asker (13yrs). and that you have more experience than him too (CPR/AED/WFASRM certification).

he's asking for his boy scout troop-mates. and who's going to train them?

Agreed. My reply was really geared toward your post, rather than to the OP's original question.

I felt that Lono had made a very valid distinction that these items were well beyond the scope of a BSA troop FAK, but looking back I can see where that may not have been clear to others from my reply.

Jim
_________________________
My EDC and FAK


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#133159 - 05/18/08 12:31 AM Re: Airways? [Re: Paragon]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2184
Loc: Deep south... Carolina
You can take classes in CA starting at usually 15 or 16, but you can't sit for the test and CERTIFY until 18. So, really, I'd avoid them.

You can do damage with both nasal and oral airways. Nasal airways have more complications (bleeding, trauma to the mucosa, perforating into the brain in cases of head trauma), but orals have problems too (usually due to using too large and blocking off the airway).

Anyway, for your BSA kit, I'd avoid them. The chance of you using them is slim, and you're not certified anyway. Not to mention that most likely, either your CPR will soon be taken over by EMS, or you're so far out that you'll have to stop sooner or later.

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