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#131828 - 05/02/08 02:10 AM Re: What Gun? [Re: GreyGhost]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
Welcome Newguy!!!
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#131831 - 05/02/08 03:02 AM Re: What Gun? [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
bigmbogo Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 82
Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

I would have to go with Chris's suggestion for the Lee Enfield .303 No4. 4 inch groups with the iron sights at 200 yards is acheivable and with a 4x Scope fitted around 600 yards for again a 4 inch group. At 1000 yards with a bit more care taking into account windage should get you around 8 to 12 inch groups.



This is a perfect example of someone quoting a completely mythical effective range for a rifle. Run a ballistics calculator, and you'll see that a .303 174gr spire point bullet starting out at 2400fps drops 288", or 24 feet, at 750 yards, or 56 FEET at 1000. If you can hold the height of a five story building over a target the size of a dinner plate, you're a better shot than I.

We need to check our facts before we go quoting life-or-death techniques here, folks.

David

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#131833 - 05/02/08 03:17 AM Re: What Gun? [Re: bigmbogo]
BobS Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 924
Loc: Toledo Ohio
For most people 300-yards (maybe 400 at most) is about all you can expect them to hit a dinner plate sized target, even with a scoped rifle.


A good varmint hunter can do better then that (a lot better) but most donít shoot as well as they tell themselves (and tell others) they can.

2 liter pop bottles are great targets to practice on. They are about the size of a woodchucks body and you can easily see the results when you get a hit. The holes in a paper plate are hard to see even when looking through a 22 power scope or a 30 power spotting scope.
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#131862 - 05/02/08 01:17 PM Re: What Gun? [Re: bigmbogo]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
"...If you can hold the height of a five story building over a target the size of a dinner plate..."

You could just adjust your sights and aim at the target, that is what I used to do when I shot 1000 yards with an '03 Springfield...
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#131893 - 05/02/08 05:53 PM Re: What Gun? [Re: bigmbogo]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3077
Hi bigmbogo

Quote:


This is a perfect example of someone quoting a completely mythical effective range for a rifle. Run a ballistics calculator, and you'll see that a .303 174gr spire point bullet starting out at 2400fps drops 288", or 24 feet, at 750 yards, or 56 FEET at 1000. If you can hold the height of a five story building over a target the size of a dinner plate, you're a better shot than I.

We need to check our facts before we go quoting life-or-death techniques here, folks.



I've tried to get some data on the Mk8 .303, this was the best I could find although the balistic Coefficient is just an estimate being boat-tail ammunition.

Muzzle velocity - 2,550 ft/s (780m/s).
Weight - 175 gr
Balistic Coefficient 0.55

giving the following data calculated from http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/calculations/traj/traj.html

Range 200 yards ; Drop -6 inches ; Velocity 2249.8 ft/sec Mach 1.994 ; Energy 1966.5 ftlbs ; Time 0.121 sec

Range 400 yards ; Drop -39.7 inches ; Velocity 1966.2 ft/sec Mach 1.743 ; Energy 1502.0 ftlbs ; Time 0.536 sec

Range 600 yards ; Drop -103 inches ; Velocity 1707.1 ft/sec Mach 1.513 ; Energy 1132.2 ftlbs ; Time 0.863 sec

Range 800 yards ; Drop -227.4 inches ; Velocity 1477.6 ft/sec Mach 1.310 ; Energy 848.3 ftlbs; Time 1.241 sec

Range 1000 yards ; Drop - 409.0 inches ; Velocity 1286.1 ft/sec Mach 1.140 ; Energy 642.6 ftlbs; Time 1.678 sec

The drop is around 34 feet for 1000 yards using Mk8 ammo. The drop isn't really the problem its how consistant and how predictable the drop is to acheive accurate groups. It should also be noted that at 800 yards the 0.303 still has more lethality energy than the M16 NATO 5.56x45 mm at 400 yards or the AK-47 7.62x39 at 300 yards. I think that the Lee Enfield No4 has iron sights graduated up to 1500 yards or about 1 mile (its been years since I've held one) but the usable range using iron sight would have been around 600 yards.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B9NkQldeu0&feature=related

Hitting a dinner plate sized steel plate at 860 yards with 5.56x45mm balistics (about a 19 foot drop 300 ftlbs final energy and 1.3 sec flight time)





Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (05/02/08 07:15 PM)

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#131916 - 05/03/08 12:43 AM Re: What Gun? [Re: MoBOB]
7point82 Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/24/05
Posts: 478
Loc: Oklahoma
Originally Posted By: MoBOB
Originally Posted By: SwampDonkey




I have been working on a method to store a very basic mini-survival kit within a plastic tube in the butt of the gun instead of 2 spare shotgun shells. Like most of my projects lately this one has not gotten off the idea stage due to other time commitments.



Try using two empty 12 guage and two empty 20 guage shells. IIRC the 20 will slide into the 12 rather snugly. Trim whatever one to use as a cap/plug for the other. YMMV.


FYI for those AR owners. Another great (IMO) storage idea is the inserts for the Magpul MAID AR grips. The inserts allow you to carry a spare bolt and firing pin inside the grip. Two very important replacement parts for an AR.
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#131986 - 05/04/08 03:19 AM Re: What Gun? [Re: 7point82]
duckear Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/01/04
Posts: 477
Urban or wilderness survival?

Urban?

AR15, no question.



Wilderness?

.22LR if I am walking a long way.

12 gauge shotgun if I am staying put. 12 gauge ammo is heavy!

12 gauge or a bolt gun in 300 magnum and up if I am in brown bear country.





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#132026 - 05/05/08 01:33 AM Re: What Gun? [Re: BobS]
goon Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 37
I'm working on acquiring a 20 gauge NEF single barrel.
I think the youth models with their 22" barrels and short stocks make neat little compact guns that you can afford to use and not regret it. Toss it in the truck, slap a coat of oil on it every couple months, and it will be there when you need it.
They're also pretty light so if you were injured and had to manage with one hand you could probably still use. I actually used to know of an older guy who was a stroke victim who used one for small game hunting. They also come apart with the phillips screwdriver on your multi-tool or you can stick a survivor forend on it if you want a thumbscrew.
I've owned a few 12 gauges before and still do have one (that might get sold before too long), but for my uses anymore I think the 20 gauge is entirely adequate. I live in the NE US and I think a 20 gauge slug will be entirely adequate for any woodland defensive use I can come up with. Regular shotshells are a little lighter than 12 gauge so you can carry a few more for the same weight and bulk but they still have enough effectiveness. The recoil with 12 gauge slugs is also pretty brutal in most single shots. That isn't a huge concern in use but it can be a big deal when you practice. Maybe it's just me, but I'd like to be confident that I can place my shots with decent accuracy and that takes a little practice. wink

Although I love .22 LR's for their cheap practice and general versatility, I have to admit that it has always been easier for me to get some squirrels and rabbits during hunting season with a shotgun than with a .22 rifle (but I can do it with the rifle too). If you take into account that in a real survival situation you may be injured, cold, fatigued, and starving, I think the extra "forgiveness" built into a shotgun beats a .22 by a little.

I also second the Enfield as an awesome rifle. I'd love to get my hands on a No.4 and some 215 grain JSP bullets to handload for it. They're extremely tough rifles that will work under the worst conditions and can be had pretty cheap, especially if you can find a hack-job sporter to make over.
Although .303 ammo is pretty much limited either to fairly expensive new factory ammo or handloads, that isn't a huge disadvantage IMO. First, if you buy the rifle you should get "enough" ammo with it to get you by for awhile. Second, .303 ammo isn't really that much more expensive than 7.62x51/.308 anymore. Last, .303 is about the easiest cartridge to reload I've ever loaded. Use neck sizing dies only and reloading is even easier than loading straight walled handgun rounds.
For a higher powered rifle I don't think the Enfield gives up anything to a FAL or Garand that it doesn't win back somewhere else and it certainly doesn't lose anything (in practical use) to any of the semi-auto assault rifle knockoffs.


Edited by goon (05/05/08 01:40 AM)

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#265621 - 12/11/13 07:29 PM Re: What Gun? [Re: duckear]
lickx Offline
Stranger

Registered: 12/05/13
Posts: 2
Urban... I sticking with my AR. I have loaded min with a bunch of AR 15 Accessories. I think any one on the other side of the barrel would crap them selves.

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#265622 - 12/11/13 07:31 PM Re: What Gun? [Re: Paragon]
lickx Offline
Stranger

Registered: 12/05/13
Posts: 2
I do love that I graded my AR-15 Grip with the Hogue Grip with Finger Grooves also

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