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#131500 - 04/29/08 06:26 PM Re: [Re: ]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2018
Loc: Colorado
I have a Gamo Shadow 1000. This is a .177 caliber, 1000 f.p.s. air rifle. Synthetic stock, came with a 4x32 scope. Cost me $99 (actually it was free if you count the Cabelas Club points I used to buy it).

The most common calibers are .177 and .22, with .22 being better for hunting (more whallop downrange) and .177 being better for target shooting (flatter trajectory).

Check out http://www.pyramydair.com/ for a good representation of what is available. For an air rifle useful for hunting, you're talking $100 at the low end. Most fall into the $100-$200 range. Higher price gets you fancier stocks and things that would be of interest to high accuracy target shooters or professional hunters. The Gamo I bought was a refurb, which is why it was only $99. You can find a very decent airgun for $99 on clearance right now here:

http://natchezss.com/category.cfm?conten...dID=GN611005654

This is basically like my Shadow 1000 with a wood stock and no scope. A very decent looking scope (which I don't own yet, but I will soon) is:

http://www.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/accessory.pl?accessory_id=1683

One note: If you buy a "breakbarrel" air rifle, also known as a "springer", make sure you buy an airgun rated scope for it. Airgun recoil is very mild, but it is different than firearm recoil. Firearm recoil is backward only, airgun (if a "springer") is both backwards and forwards. That type of recoil will destroy a scope not designed for it. CO2 powered airguns have zero recoil, it's the springers that I'm talking about here. Springer recoil is much milder than even a .22 firearm, but it's the two-way nature of it that kills regular scopes.

I also have a Crosman 1377 air pistol. $49. Many air pistols, especially the ones that try to look like bad-ass firearms, are just junk toys. And they cost more than better pistols like a Crosman 1377 or 2240.

[edit]
p.s. - The secret to accuracy with a springer is hold. You don't grasp a springer like you would a firearm. You set it lightly in your hands. It wants to move backwards and forwards just a smidgen when you fire it. Let it. The trick is to let it move the same way each time you fire it. I use an open hand on the fore grip. Just set it there in my open palm. My fore grip is slightly forward of the trigger guard - but it's a different spot on different rifles. Technically this open grip will give you better groups with a firearm too, but they are not as sensitive to grip as a springer is. Also, an open grip on a firearm might wipe out your shoulder from the recoil!
[/edit]


Edited by haertig (04/29/08 06:35 PM)

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#131507 - 04/29/08 07:28 PM Re: What Gun? [Re: NightHiker]
Jackpine_Savage Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 73
Loc: Minnesota
While I can't argue with any of the other choices, I'd like to suggest either an M1 carbine, or a .357 magnum rifle, paired with a suitable handgun. Those rifles have just a little more recoil than a .22 but not much. The noise signature isn't too loud either which can be either good or bad. I value my hearing over a gunshot signal so I think its good.

As to their ability, I have taken deer with both and the performed better than I expected, especially the .30 carbine. I expected the .357 to be up to the task but the carbine suprised me with over 5' of penetration.

The advantage of the .357 is that it shares ammunition with commonly found revolvers, but can only be found in single shot, lever, or pump action. The latter two are tube fed and all are slower to load, and require movement to reload a second shot.

The M1 carbine being a magazine fed semi-auto is faster to load, and reload and doesn't require movement to chaber a second shot. The M1 is also smaller than most .357 carbines, and weighs in at about 5 pounds. Unfortunatly prices have skyrocketed on them in the last few years.

Just my two cents worth.
_________________________
It's a Jungle out there.

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#131508 - 04/29/08 07:42 PM Re: What Gun? [Re: BobS]
SwampDonkey Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/08/07
Posts: 1268
Loc: Northeastern Ontario, Canada
Hi Bob,

I like your thoughts on the old Savage 24 in .22/20ga as a survival gun, last summer I bought one in the Camper Companion version. It is very handy and I take it to my camp to hunt grouse in the fall or for vermin control (nuisance porcupines, red squirrels or black bears).

The variety of ammo available (20ga. shot, buckshot or slugs / sub-sonic .22's CB caps to CCI Stingers) help make this combination gun a very versatile, lightweight package.

I have been working on a method to store a very basic mini-survival kit within a plastic tube in the butt of the gun instead of 2 spare shotgun shells. Like most of my projects lately this one has not gotten off the idea stage due to other time commitments. I bought this Savage 24 used and it did not come with the original take-down case, I need to try it in the case for the Marlin Papoose to see if it will fit?

I did have trouble getting the fold-up sight on rifle barrel to hit at point of aim, if I remember correctly I think I ran out of elevation adjustment. I changed the front sight to compensate for this but the plan is to replace the rear open sight with a large diameter peep sight.

I liked the recent post by fs1911 about shotgun barrel inserts, that may turn the 20ga. barrel into a .30-30 or 30/40 Krag and make it a better big game gun. Does anyone have any experience with these inserts in a Savage 24? http://www.mcace.com/Insertsindex.htm

I also have a Rem. 870 Pump 12ga. with a folding stock and 20" Rem. choke, rifle sighted barrel. I often take this on walks in the fall to hunt northern grouse (very dumb birds) while the moose season is on. If I happen on to a calf moose while on my stroll a quick change over to a slug followed by a close stalk, could result in a lot of good eating. I cannot say I am fond of the folding metal stock, although it is more compact for storage. I often just leave the regular synthetic buttstock on as it is more comfortable to shoot with.

Survival firearms are always a fun topic, lots of different opinions!

Mike

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#131510 - 04/29/08 07:45 PM Re: What Gun? [Re: MartinFocazio]
Paul810 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 1428
Loc: NJ, USA
Best survival gun? Probably the one you have when you need it. No use buying a .500 S&W if you aren't going to have it near you when you need it.

With that said, I've always had a few favorites when it comes to firearms in general. I'll just list them all.

1. A .22LR rifle. Preferably one that has a detachable magazine and is either bolt action or autoloading. They're great because, in general, they're inexpensive to buy, inexpensive to shoot, easy to carry, easy to shoot, and ammo is everywhere.

2. A good air rifle. Like haertig, I'm a fan of them. They're great for basically the same reasons a .22LR is, with two other added bonuses.

The first is, you could fit 500 pellets in the space of 50 .22LR. The ammunition is about as compact as you can get. The second is, they don't require a casing and powder charge, so as long as you can get your hands on some metal and a way to form it into a rough pellet, you can shoot it. You could probably even shoot small pebbles, though I don't know how they would do ballistically. A .22LR, OTOH, becomes about as useful as a stick once you run out of ammo.

Basically, A pellet gun allows for the carrying of more ammo, and it might still be useful after you run out of premade pellets. The trade-off though is it's even less powerful than a .22LR rifle on average, and a .22LR isn't exactly all that powerful to begin with.

3. A lever action carbine and revolver combo, or possibly a more modern carbine/pistol combo. Take for example, a .357 lever action and a .357 revolver. The ammunition is relatively small and light compared to larger rifle ammunition, but still plenty powerful for most game in NA. You only have to carry one ammunition type, which makes things a lot easier. You could shoot both .38's and .357's if need be, and both .38 special and .357 mag are pretty common.

You could use shot shells to take out small game, or full magnum loads on larger game or predators. If you have another person with you, you could loan them one of the firearms and some ammo to try and cover more ground or to have more firepower. I could go on and on, but a carbine and pistol in the same, readily available, smaller caliber are one of my favorite outdoor combos. I've even heard of .44 Magnum carbines and revolvers being used to hunt bear.

4. A 12 gauge smooth bore shotgun. While heavy and a bit rough to shoot, it's probably one of the versatile and well-proven firearms out there, along with the .22. Sure, I wouldn't want to carry it plus a few hundred rounds if I didn't have to, but it's great to keep around the house. In fact, I know of quite a few people around here whose only firearms were a shotgun and a .22, they're like the bread-and-butter of the firearms world, at least in NA. Besides, the sound of a pump action shotgun slide racking is still the fastest way to get an unwelcome guest out of your house. wink

5. A bolt action .308 or .30.06., again generally heavy and tough to shoot, but they pack a wallop and are great at distances greater than a stones throw. Not as versatile as a shotgun, but just as well proven.

6. An "AR" type rifle. Originally I wasn't a huge fan of the AR and .223, but its started to grow on me. They're a surprisingly versatile platform. Rifle versions, carbine versions, pistol versions, .22 or 9mm conversions, match grade barrels, open sights or optics, rails for various add-ons. In effect you can make an AR for just about anything, just by changing lowers and uppers. I think I've seen them used in every application, except for big game hunting. That says a lot about them.


Now, I'm no expert, like I said those are just a few of my favorites based on what I like in firearms (common, easy to find ammo for, versatility, ect). Everyone is going to have their own opinion. When it comes to firearms there is always a trade-off somewhere. None of them are perfect in every situation. That's why you have to pick one you're comfortable with using and possibly carrying, become proficient with it, and hope that's all you'll ever need.

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#131511 - 04/29/08 07:46 PM Re: What Gun? [Re: Jackpine_Savage]
wildman800 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2811
Loc: La-USA
I second the recommendation about the .357mag rifle/carbine. The Rossi that I have is a lever action and has a flat trajectory for approximately 100 yards; after that the round is into the dirt. The carbine that I have also uses .38spl which is another very common round.

If the M1 Carbine is your personal choice, then the Rugar Blackhawk .30cal carbine six shooter is an excellent sidearm to make use of. With the 6" or 8" barrel, it is very accurate and due to the low recoil factor, it is easy to double tap as well.

Since I entered this thread, I'll go the rest of the way.
For in-home defense, I recommend a 12ga with #4 or #6 shot. It has a great spread but insufficient power and penetration to get through your neighbor's walls and harm them.

The 9mm is also a great in-home defense sidearm since it is great for close-up but lacks the means to get to your neighbors sleeping next door.

That's my 2 cents, YMMV.
_________________________
QMC, USCG (Ret)
The best luck is what you make yourself!

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#131518 - 04/29/08 08:13 PM Re: What Gun? [Re: SwampDonkey]
BobS Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 924
Loc: Toledo Ohio
Originally Posted By: SwampDonkey
Hi Bob,

I like your thoughts on the old Savage 24 in .22/20ga as a survival gun, last summer I bought one in the Camper Companion version. It is very handy and I take it to my camp to hunt grouse in the fall or for vermin control (nuisance porcupines, red squirrels or black bears).

The variety of ammo available (20ga. shot, buckshot or slugs / sub-sonic .22's CB caps to CCI Stingers) help make this combination gun a very versatile, lightweight package.

I have been working on a method to store a very basic mini-survival kit within a plastic tube in the butt of the gun instead of 2 spare shotgun shells. Like most of my projects lately this one has not gotten off the idea stage due to other time commitments. I bought this Savage 24 used and it did not come with the original take-down case, I need to try it in the case for the Marlin Papoose to see if it will fit?

I did have trouble getting the fold-up sight on rifle barrel to hit at point of aim, if I remember correctly I think I ran out of elevation adjustment. I changed the front sight to compensate for this but the plan is to replace the rear open sight with a large diameter peep sight.

I liked the recent post by fs1911 about shotgun barrel inserts, that may turn the 20ga. barrel into a .30-30 or 30/40 Krag and make it a better big game gun. Does anyone have any experience with these inserts in a Savage 24? http://www.mcace.com/Insertsindex.htm

I also have a Rem. 870 Pump 12ga. with a folding stock and 20" Rem. choke, rifle sighted barrel. I often take this on walks in the fall to hunt northern grouse (very dumb birds) while the moose season is on. If I happen on to a calf moose while on my stroll a quick change over to a slug followed by a close stalk, could result in a lot of good eating. I cannot say I am fond of the folding metal stock, although it is more compact for storage. I often just leave the regular synthetic buttstock on as it is more comfortable to shoot with.

Survival firearms are always a fun topic, lots of different opinions!

Mike




Great idea on the storage kit. I have 3-22 and 1 shotgun shell stored in the stock of mine.

I got my Savage 24 for free, My friend that owns a gun shop gave it to me years ago for doing some stuff for him. Itís an old gun, so old it has no serial number stamped into it. Itís in great shape and shoots better then I can hold it.



I have a Marlin 1894 357 Mag lever action rifle and never shoot it any more. I should have sent it back to Marlin to find out why it shoots a 12 Ĺ inch group at 100-yards. But I never got around to it.

_________________________



You can run, but you'll only die tired.


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#131520 - 04/29/08 08:23 PM Re: What Gun? [Re: BobS]
Jackpine_Savage Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 73
Loc: Minnesota
I had a Marlin until my son started hunting and decided he wanted it after taking his first deer with it. Mine needed jacket bullets, and was fine. Lead bullets shot a pattern not a group (think buckshot)unless I was shooting .38 spl wadcutters. Which incidently made a pop as they exited the barrel an no other noise. I think it had to do with the micro- groove rifling in them.

I recomend that you clean the barrel and make sure all lead is out of it which can be a pain. Then try jacketed bullets. My son's rifle likes Federal American Eagle 158 grain JSP's and Magtech's in the same style. It shoots better than we can hold it. Or about 1 1/2" at 100 yards. I did change the sights as the original bead front sight covered the black of a 25 yard pistol target at 100 yards. I put a plain thin post with a peep rear and removed the rear sight from the barrel.
_________________________
It's a Jungle out there.

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#131527 - 04/29/08 09:07 PM Re: What Gun? [Re: Jackpine_Savage]
BobS Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 924
Loc: Toledo Ohio
Originally Posted By: Jackpine_Savage
I had a Marlin until my son started hunting and decided he wanted it after taking his first deer with it. Mine needed jacket bullets, and was fine. Lead bullets shot a pattern not a group (think buckshot)unless I was shooting .38 spl wadcutters. Which incidently made a pop as they exited the barrel an no other noise. I think it had to do with the micro- groove rifling in them.

I recomend that you clean the barrel and make sure all lead is out of it which can be a pain. Then try jacketed bullets. My son's rifle likes Federal American Eagle 158 grain JSP's and Magtech's in the same style. It shoots better than we can hold it. Or about 1 1/2" at 100 yards. I did change the sights as the original bead front sight covered the black of a 25 yard pistol target at 100 yards. I put a plain thin post with a peep rear and removed the rear sight from the barrel.



I tried every bullet weight from 110 gr to 220 gr, Jacketed, half jacketed, soft lead, hard cast lead, 9-mm bullets, 358 Winchester rifle bullets (250 gr) I tried all kinds of different gun powder and it still shoots a 12 Ĺ inch group.

I have a Marlin Camp-9, 9-mm rifle and it shoots a 4 inch group at 100 yards, I wish the 357 rifle did that.
_________________________



You can run, but you'll only die tired.


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#131533 - 04/29/08 10:00 PM Re: What Gun? [Re: BobS]
RobertRogers Offline
Survivor
Member

Registered: 12/12/06
Posts: 198
.22LR is an excellent choice for survival gun and could be an excellent first aquisition. Carry a great deal of inexpensive ammo, serviceable for most food you are likely to bag (rabbit, squirrel, porcupine, beaver, even deer), low report if not revealing your location is a consideration.

In this heavily forested area even a 75 to 100-yard shot is often unlikely due to dense underbrush, and at 50 or 75-yards a .22LR performs surprising well.

My .22 holds 16 rounds in the tube, semi-auto. Good overall rife and handy in a variety of situations, even self-defense.

add a 12 gauge shotgun

plus one of the following .308, 30-06, 30-30

plus a good handgun

Plus a couple thousand rounds for each minimum

Plus cleaning supplies and spare parts and you are all set come what may.
_________________________
FireSteel.com

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#131535 - 04/29/08 10:11 PM Re: What Gun? [Re: BobS]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3077

I would have to go with Chris's suggestion for the Lee Enfield .303 No4. 4 inch groups with the iron sights at 200 yards is acheivable and with a 4x Scope fitted around 600 yards for again a 4 inch group. At 1000 yards with a bit more care taking into account windage should get you around 8 to 12 inch groups. It will also work in conditions where most other modern military rifles begin to fail. It is also very well balanced for handling making it easier/just as easy to handle than most military rifles despite being a few pounds heavier. I believe you can get them for a few hundred dollars in the US. Cheaper than a good air rifle and yet more lethal than something like an M16 or AR15. shocked crazy


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