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#128470 - 03/27/08 12:46 AM Re: Pilot accidently fires gun in cockpit of plane [Re: ]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
It's only a four digit number, much easier for those who are shazbot challenged wink

IMO, dump the lock (of all combo locks, that one can be picked with a paperclip), the holster itself is probably okay although there are probably better lower profile options.
_________________________
Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

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#128471 - 03/27/08 12:51 AM Re: Pilot accidently fires gun in cockpit of plane [Re: Stretch]
Stretch Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 707
Loc: Alamogordo, NM
Also, I don;t think the airlines has a problem with trusting the pilots with the gun outside the cockpit. It's more about not trusting the terrorists access to the armed pilot...... while he's outside the cockpit. Remember, pilots are not trained law enforcement officers, nor should they be, nor do they need to be. They need to be trained well enough to KILL any humphead lucky enough to get past the air mashals and any other agents in the aisle, and dumb enough to try and breach the cockpit door.
_________________________
DON'T BE SCARED
-Stretch

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#128474 - 03/27/08 01:10 AM Re: Pilot accidently fires gun in cockpit of plane [Re: Stretch]
NAro Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/15/01
Posts: 517
With absolutely no data other than what you guys have already read..I have a bet regarding how this happened.

The H&K USP .40cal that pilot carried has a safety/decocker lever. It has a relatively "nubby" hammer. Manually pull the hammer back with a round chambered, and you're in a SA trigger mode, I think (at least in the variant I've handled). So the only safe way to decock is with the finger well away from the trigger and using the decock lever.

An old 1911 shooter, used to the old habit of riding the hammer down with the trigger depressed to "decock" the pistol is IMHO an AD waiting to happen with many modern pistols. On that H&K (and e.g. the SIG P6/225) I think you can very easily slip off of the hammer while pulling the trigger and trying to ease the hammer down. BANG. OOPS.

So..that's my bet about what happened.

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#128482 - 03/27/08 02:30 AM Re: Pilot accidently fires gun in cockpit of plane [Re: NAro]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
As was postulated on THR, if the pistol isn't fully seated in the holster when you insert the lock, the lock goes in front of the trigger instead of behind it. Then if the pistol is further seated the trigger is "pulled" by the lock itself.
_________________________
Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

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#128484 - 03/27/08 03:03 AM Re: Pilot accidently fires gun in cockpit of plane [Re: Russ]
Stretch Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 707
Loc: Alamogordo, NM
I'm not sure they're using a USP double action/Single action as opposed to a double action only. I mean maybe they are, I just don;t know that. Do you? I seem to remember (but am not sure) a pilot telling me he was carrying a SIG, though I don;t remember which model.

If in fact though, as Russ says was postulated, the AD occurred after the trigger was locked and then pushed further down in the holster, it seems as though very little foresight was given when choosing the lock and holster. But when I look at the picture that somebody posted above, that doesn;t seem probable.

ALL is possible in Government service and regulation - that I can attest to.

Locking up legally-owned and legal-carry guns....it's just funny stuff.


Edited by Stretch (03/27/08 03:08 AM)
_________________________
DON'T BE SCARED
-Stretch

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#128493 - 03/27/08 10:59 AM Re: Pilot accidently fires gun in cockpit of plane [Re: Russ]
AROTC Offline
Addict

Registered: 05/06/04
Posts: 604
Loc: Manhattan
That sounds similar to the rumor I heard about the early Glock cases. Supposedly they had a post in the middle of the box that the trigger guard went around. People buying them for home defense would load the pistols, put them back in the box and when they went to put them under the bed or somewhere else, the weight of the pistol on that post would pull the trigger. Since the only safety on the Glock was on the trigger its self, bam ND.

I make no claims about the veracity of this story. But if something similar happened with the pilot, its another example of poorly thought design coupled with a tendency to do things with out fully analyzing the mechanics of what you're doing. It happens to people all the time, especially when follow directions or training.
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A gentleman should always be able to break his fast in the manner of a gentleman where so ever he may find himself.--Good Omens

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#128503 - 03/27/08 01:24 PM Re: Pilot accidently fires gun in cockpit of plane [Re: Stretch]
NAro Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/15/01
Posts: 517
O.K. Stretch and Russ... I'll waffle a bit on my bet. How about this: Variants 1, 2,3,4 all are DA/SA and have decockers but don't all have a safety. If these variants, I'll stick to my bet.
Variant 5 and 6 are DAO, with a safety. If that's what he carried, he had a round chambered without the safety engaged.
Variant 7 with DAO and no control lever, or with Variant 8 and 9 which are DA/SA, safety, but no decocking... or .. or...
heck.. I give up! Wasn't there! Will never know!

My usual EDC is a H&K P7. I can't imagine an AD with that pistol, particularly if holstered.

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#128506 - 03/27/08 01:42 PM Re: Pilot accidently fires gun in cockpit of plane [Re: Stretch]
SwampDonkey Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/08/07
Posts: 1268
Loc: Northeastern Ontario, Canada
I have a little to add on this thread but I am only familiar with one type of pistol, the H&K USP 40 in Double Action Only variant. I am personally aware of 2 negligent discharges (ND) that happened when holstering this weapon; in both cases the trigger was pulled, either by the operators trapped finger or the safety thumb-break strap of the holster.

The procedure to prevent this from happening is to place the thumb of your gun hand on top of the hammer of the weapon as it is seated in the holster to prevent it from rising if the trigger is being pulled. If any movement of the hammer is felt the holstering process is stopped immediately, the situation is inspected/cleared, the weapon is withdrawn safely, unloaded and both the weapon and holster inspected for obstructions or defects.

I can in no way say that this is what caused the ND that happened in the airliner cockpit (or even if they use this type of pistol).

The above holstering procedure is just how I was trained and it has worked well for me.

Mike

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#128508 - 03/27/08 02:00 PM Re: Pilot accidently fires gun in cockpit of plane [Re: SwampDonkey]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
What is the purpose, then of the lock? Is it to disable the firearm at a certain time, or to prevent it from being deployed at a certain time, or what?

Regardless the purpose, I can think of far better, more effective, and much safer ways to accomplish any/all of the above.

That lock has to be one of the most ridiculous ideas I've seen in quite a while. I put it in the top three all time for idiotizing an otherwise great idea for the use of a firearm.

I can't think of any condition in which I would ever carry a firearm like that. I would rather do without, and I abhor being disarmed. I have to think it would be preferable to remain unarmed and come up with a different strategy than to be armed but unable to use the damn thing.

If the government were really concerned with secruing that cockpit, then they would deputize the cockpit flight staff. I can't imagine airline pilots being somehow less capable than the average joe they pick up off the street to turn into a sky marshall. It's not like their criteria was all that stringent. In many cases you are talking ex-military for flight crews.

Another example of bureaucracy getting in the way of good sense.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#128515 - 03/27/08 02:35 PM Re: Pilot accidently fires gun in cockpit of plane [Re: benjammin]
Arney Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: benjammin
What is the purpose, then of the lock? Is it to disable the firearm at a certain time, or to prevent it from being deployed at a certain time, or what?

From what I've read in the past, a pilot's weapon must be secured whenever they leave the locked cockpit. The logic is that if the TSA did their job, then a potential hijacker will not have a firearm, so an armed pilot outside of the cockpit then becomes an obvious target to obtain a weapon from. As we know from the past, hijackers often come in groups, and a pilot bum rushed by several guys in the main cabin stands a good chance of being overpowered.

Initially, I believe pilots had to lock their weapon in small gun safes but there were complaints, like with space inside the cockpit. Then they went with these ridiculous holsters.

Like AROTC was alluding to, I think there's a screwy process here that is probably really to blame, with a holster that could allow the padlock shackle to be hooked in front of the trigger rather than behind it. I would tend to believe that explanation more than a commercial pilot was sloppily handling his weapon while the plane was on approach.

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