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#127851 - 03/20/08 04:41 AM Re: Landmark 2nd Amendment case pending [Re: BobS]
Paul810 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 1428
Loc: NJ, USA
Originally Posted By: BobS
[quote=Art_in_FL]

Itís a dangerous position to be caviler about a right (gun ownership) because you donít feel it effects you right now. At some point one of your rights that does effect you and that you care about will be under attack and if others say ďno big dealĒ as you did whoís going to fight for it if we all felt that way?



What you said reminded me of this poem:

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didnít speak up because I wasnít a PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER.;

And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didnít speak up because I wasnít a trade unionist;

And then they came for the Jews, And I didnít speak up because I wasnít a Jew;

And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."


-Pastor Martin Niemoeller

Not really the same context, but the idea is similar. The loss of a few rights can, one day, lead to the loss of all rights.

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#127852 - 03/20/08 04:55 AM Re: Landmark 2nd Amendment case pending [Re: Paul810]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
Delete this if you want, but...

Every time I hear about DC's strict gun control laws, it always makes me wonder if they weren't created to protect the politicians. Do they think that people might have reasons to be PO'd at them, and pop a few caps in their direction?

Sue

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#127869 - 03/20/08 01:26 PM Re: Landmark 2nd Amendment case pending [Re: Susan]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
Quite right, and bear in mind that not only do all the politicians have armed guards escorting them anywhere anytime, but most also have special permits allowing them to arm themselves while in the district as well. Yet another example of a double standard.

_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#127872 - 03/20/08 01:39 PM Re: Landmark 2nd Amendment case pending [Re: Art_in_FL]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
I've heard from a lot of folks who don't think that gun ownership is a big concern to them. In their case, I have to agree, within a narrow context, but consider how such thinking then flows into other aspects of our culture.

For instance, much of what happened to African Americans prior to the civil rights movement and the passage of certain amendments really had no effect on me or people like me. I am caucasian and never really experienced discrimination or prejudice firsthand, nor did my parents or grandparents. To their way of thinking, why would it then be so important to impose such a limitation on our government that would only directly influence the lives of other people they did not know and would never likely have need of? Still, because of people like my parents and grandparents, the laws were changed, and no longer can people be legally oppressed or denied equal opportunity in this country based on their race, religion, sex, creed etc. It just so happened, then, that one of those African Americans who's life was changed by the civil rights laws ended up saving the life of one of my relatives, thereby justifying the efforts my ancestors made to secure the rights of others though they would receive no direct benefit themselves.

I could cite many more such similar examples of how preserving the rights of others whether we realize the benefit directly ourselves or not is a prudent action. If we don't agree that all the rights defined in our consitution ought to be preserved or changed for the better, then we risk the same ambivalence with respect to our own rights by others to whom we hold no direct accountability otherwise.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#127877 - 03/20/08 02:09 PM Re: Landmark 2nd Amendment case pending [Re: ]
unimogbert Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 874
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: IzzyJG99
They'll never ban gun ownership because no government is gonna convince enough people to actually show up and turn the guns in or finance the "clean up" effort.


You're confusing practicality of implementation of a law with its likelihood of being passed. They mostly aren't connected.

DC, and the gun law being ruled upon, ironically, is a good example of this. Crime was supposed to go down when this law was passed. It didn't. The folks who want to ban guns don't care that it didn't.



I hope for full "incorporation" in the ruling. But I expect to be bitterly disappointed.

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#127885 - 03/20/08 03:17 PM Re: Landmark 2nd Amendment case pending [Re: ]
Nishnabotna Offline
Icon of Sin
Addict

Registered: 12/31/07
Posts: 512
Loc: Nebraska
Originally Posted By: IzzyJG99
Personally I think the 2nd Amendment pertained mostly to the fact that at the time there was no National Guard and that it was expected of able bodied men to form a militia. I also think it was to point out that most people in the 18th century used firearms on a daily basis to procure food for their families. It most likely was put into documentation as both a way of life and a cultural icon.


Don't forget that part of the reason that people were expected to be able to form a militia was to help keep the US Government in check. That National Guard was actually a State Guard.

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#127897 - 03/20/08 07:13 PM Re: Landmark 2nd Amendment case pending [Re: ]
BobS Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 924
Loc: Toledo Ohio
Originally Posted By: IzzyJG99
Personally I think the 2nd Amendment pertained mostly to the fact that at the time there was no National Guard and that it was expected of able bodied men to form a militia. I also think it was to point out that most people in the 18th century used firearms on a daily basis to procure food for their families. It most likely was put into documentation as both a way of life and a cultural icon.


The writing of the founding documents never addresses hunting, itís written from the point of fear that the government would become too powerful and that we the people should overthrow it and install new government if it were to become too powerful. They wanted the real power within each state, not the federal government. Over the last 200-years power has shifted away from the states to the federal government. Giving us this all powerful hammer that will pound you into the ground at a moments notice.

Hunting with a gun was not an issue to them at all. Fear of governments power over itís people was. As it was with the King of England. And actually you could say the King of America as they were all English subjects up to the time of the revolution. They were very much concerned that the new government they were creating not become tyrannical like King George was.


From a survival point of view I donít know that an assault rifle is needed. But we should be able to have one if a person wanted to.


For survival I think a bolt action or a combo gun (like a Savage24) is a good choice. I donít know that I buy into the idea that Hollywood puts into movies that people will be running around shooting everyone in site (Mad Max type of movie.)

That may happen some in big cities, but I think in small towns will pull together and work to have as normal a life as they can under the given conditions. And a Bolt action rifle fits into that well to provide food from hunting.



_________________________



You can run, but you'll only die tired.


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#127908 - 03/20/08 08:39 PM Re: Landmark 2nd Amendment case pending [Re: BobS]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
Thereto, if you want to get more perspective about the intent of the 2nd amendment, look to what the people that wrote it said elsewhere, and other powerful politicians also said at the time it was being written. I think you'll find that the common view was in support of the individual's right as a means of personal as well as communal security and safety. Hunting had nothing to do with the intent of the amendment. Being able to protect the lives of yourself and your loved ones, either individually or as a member of a community, was the paramount concern.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#127953 - 03/21/08 01:22 AM Re: Landmark 2nd Amendment case pending [Re: benjammin]
Stretch Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 707
Loc: Alamogordo, NM
Here, here! Amen (to both of the last 2 posts)


Edited by Stretch (03/21/08 01:24 AM)
_________________________
DON'T BE SCARED
-Stretch

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