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#123727 - 02/13/08 08:21 PM Re: weight vs. value [Re: Virginia_Mark]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
Originally Posted By: Run2The9
. . .A good deal of the bulk in my kit can be contributed to the Idea of "staying found"
IE: GPS, Compasses, Maps, Whistle, Extra Batteries. I could loose almost a pound of a 5 pound core kit, on these items alone. But that would not be a bright move, since they greatly promote avoiding a "survival situation", in the first place.

Excellent point. They may be redundant, but staying found is a huge step in avoiding an unintended overnight or worse assuming you can't find yourself the next day. My small GPS weighs ounces but will show me exactly where I am in relation to any point I've programmed (my truck, my last turn point, etc.) or I can just use UTM to find myself on a map. If I was in a mood to drop weight, it would be difficult to justify dumping my navigation.
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#123944 - 02/15/08 03:12 PM Re: weight vs. value [Re: mtnhiker]
RobertRogers Offline
Survivor
Member

Registered: 12/12/06
Posts: 198
If you think about it, there is a difference between going into the wilderness for an indefinite amount of time, and going in for a specific period.

If you have plenty of time and no constraints as Nessmuk typically did, it doesn't matter if you have to hunker down for a day or two in order to make gear or fix broken gear (like snowshoes, just for an example). It doensn't matter if it gets dark and you have to stop for the night. And it doesn't matter if a big storm suddenly occurs because you just hunker down for a couple of days and ride it out in a sheltered spot. So in this case you don't have to carry a headlamp, a big hank of paracord, extra clothing etc and etc to deal with contingencies. Even if you become "lost" it might not be a big deal - you have plenty of time to get yourself unlost. With plenty of time available you can trade time for gear to some extent.

However if someone expects you back by a certain time or they will contact search and rescue, you need to take steps to help insure you can walk those miles even if darkness falls, there is a mishap, some essential part of your gear fails, no matter what the weather, etc. This kind of wilderness trip requires backup gear that adds weight you must carry.


Edited by RobertRogers (02/15/08 03:36 PM)
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#123950 - 02/15/08 04:04 PM Re: weight vs. value [Re: RobertRogers]
Hacksaw
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: RobertRogers
If you think about it, there is a difference between going into the wilderness for an indefinite amount of time, and going in for a specific period.


This is precicely what I've been thinking about recently. Last night I was thinking about my gear (and about Nessmuk) and watching some Ray Mears episodes...maybe a good combo or maybe bad...

But anyhow, I realized that many of the items I carry are no good for an extended (or indefinate) stay in the wilderness....be it willing or not.

By my standards an extended stay is over a month. I always think about a 40 day time period as extended since that's about how long one can live without food.

Some items which I'm seriously questioning as 'extended survival gear' (though they still may be great for hiking/camping) now include:
  • MSR MIOX pen (dead batteries!)
  • Pioneer Filter Straw (limited overall capacity)
  • Gerber EAB Folding Saw (I can't sharpen a saw in the wilds)
  • Optimux Crux stove (once the fuel is gone, it's dead weight)
  • GMRS Radio (proven to be not very useful...and again batteries!)
  • GPS (helpful initially...but again with the batteries!)


Some other things I've been thinking a lot about are items like gear repair, first aid, and fire lighting. Many items in these kits are single use or used up quickly. While some of these items are good to have either way, I'm going to move towards stocking more of the 'good' items which are used up (ie: needles and thread) and get rid of some of the luxury items so that I'm not reliant on them. Same with fire making. I need to become less reliant on tinders. It's nice to have some for emergency and on a weekend trip they're great. But for survival I'm not sure it's good to be reliant on them.

Okay enough thread jacking...how does all this mumbling relate to weight vs value?

Well for me I've really re-thought what 'value' is and how it reltes to weight. 2 months ago I had a really hard time distinguishing between a survival item and a camping or hiking item...but thanks to this site and all of you I can now look at an item and say 'This <insert favorite widget here> is good for hiking but dead weight if I'm trying to survive in the bush for 40 days' without contradiction. For me this is hard because I truly WANT my gear to cover both angles...and, for me, it just can't. From some of my previous posts I'm sure a lot of you know that I compensated by trying to carry as much as possible...the more I carry a heavy pack, the more I desire to shed weight. I can compromise however by giving up a few luxuries and redundancies and replace them with some simple, high quality, well thought out equipment. By doing so I get more value where it counts (survival) AND less weight where it counts (a week long hike for example). And if I fill the gaps with education and experience, I've lost nothing.

I'm also discovering that redundancy is a real weight killer. While some is good (I like to have 2 knives just in case...but I've been known to carry as many as 5). These extra items can be heavy, and bring no value (unless that rare circumstance rears it's ugly head).

There's one side benefit too and it's pure vanity. As a guy typically obsessed with gadgets, I love nothing more than whipping a neat toy out in the bush to impress friends and strangers alike. It's much better to whip out a skill nobody else has and get the same job done with less hardware than anybody else can. I've impressed more people in every day life the past 6 months just with the knots I've learned to tie through my SAR training than I have with any of my gadgets.

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#123956 - 02/15/08 05:35 PM Re: weight vs. value [Re: ]
Hacksaw
Unregistered


I've thought about it many times. I even put together one myself with a 12V folding solar panel and an Energizer USB battery charger.

Instead I decided to go with learning how to better use my compass. It weighs less than any of my proper navigation gear, it's proven technology, and no batteries! smile

Besides...Between the extra batteries in my pack, the GPS in my phone, my old Garmin GPS12, AND the 4 compasses (1 regular, 3 button), I think I'm still in overkill land.

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#123984 - 02/15/08 09:36 PM Re: weight vs. value [Re: Evolute]
Leigh_Ratcliffe Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 1355
Loc: United Kingdom.
Originally Posted By: Evolute
I am sure that many people carry true luxury items in their "survival gear", such as a music player. However, I see the tendency toward packing a big load of survival gear differently than as an inability to pare away the luxuries and stick to the necessities. I think it has more to do with the role that the unknowable plays in survival situations.

Is bugproof net clothing a luxury or a survival necessity? Well... that depends upon whether you will get a deadly disease from a parasite bite, if you don't use the bugproof net clothing. So, will you? You have no way of knowing, in some cases. Is a back up firestarting method a luxury or a necessity? That depends upon whether your primary firestarting method fails during a life threatening situation. Will it? Again, you can't tell in advance.

(Such possibilities really do happen. I've picked up a disease from a tick bite which would have killed me, without medical intervention. I've reached into my gear and found my lighter broken.)

Since we don't know in advance whether any given item will turn out to be critical or unused when a survival situation strikes, we take our best educated guesses, and place out bets by making the survival gear choices we do. Sometimes, for some folks, that means a weighty load.

It's not that any given piece of survival kit is intrinsically a luxury item (or intrinsically a necessity), and we are miscategorizing it; instead, it's that the same piece of kit is sometimes a luxury and other times a necessity, and we'll never know which it will be, in advance.

By the way, here's the fundamental survival gear I carry:

http://www.mikespinak.com/articles/Essays/e995mypsk.html

I also carry other stuff, like warm clothes and food.


The moral is to the physical ten to one. Decent music and JPEG's of your loved ones will keep your spirits up.

I posted links to E.T.S. and your articles on the website (forum) for the camera club (Windsor Photographic Society) that i am a member of. On the grounds that our members go to all sorts of exotic places to get a picture.

Unfortunately they ain't taking a great deal of notice. Usual story. It's probably going to take a funeral before they take notice. frown
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#123985 - 02/15/08 09:44 PM Re: weight vs. value [Re: Blast]
Leigh_Ratcliffe Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 1355
Loc: United Kingdom.
Originally Posted By: Blast
Quote:
emerged with our ponchos w/liners,patrol hats, canteen w/cups, kives and fire making ability. everything else was just extra weight and after days with minimal to no food and water at a premium things feel like they are made out of lead.


That's a very good point. Things definately weigh more after a few days without food. The usual problem is most people lack the skills needed to travel light, so they fall back on gear. If you look at someone like Nessmuck or the Alps Iceman you'll see people that would travel long distances through the wilds with little more than a blanket, knife and fire kit.

The problem is we can't predict the future. If I thought the only risk I faced was getting lost then the blanket/knife/fire would be all I'd bring. However, if I then break a leg I'd probably be screwed. So I pack a few things for that possibility. Then I think of a few more dangers and more gear is added. Soon I was ending up with the 30lb day hike pack, which, quite frankly here in Texas is silly. I've pared it down to my survival kit which I've posted in the past, some water bottles, and a first aid kit. I want to enjoy the freedom of the woods without a hospital/military surplus store on my back.

-Blast, just rambling


Are you aware that Ozzie the Iceman was murdered? They found at least one arrow wound in his back. Seems that he was (most likely) attacked for his herd/goods. He escaped his attackers by going uphill but became weakened by loss of blood. He took shelter but died of a combination of blood loss and hypothermia.

So I should be carefull about drawing too many conclusions about how much or little he had. I think that the goods found with him were his E.D.C. Every thing else was taken by his attackers/murderers.
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#123994 - 02/15/08 10:46 PM Re: weight vs. value [Re: mtnhiker]
philip Offline
Addict

Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 639
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Well, here are my two cents: If I'm lost, I'm going to stop walking and wait for rescue. People who are lost and try to walk their way out cause many more problems for would-be rescuers who may have the proposed hike route by the lost people who are now hopelessly out of sync with their plan. Once I figure out I'm lost, I just stop.

Weight then becomes a non-issue. I sit there in my emergency orange shelter with my french coffee press, garlic press, dutch oven, and my emergency orange lawn chair, waiting for them to come to me. I'll probably blow my emergency orange super whistle occasionally, too.

I've had several survival classes from the Air Force, and the goals are completely different from being lost. Pilots are shot down over enemy territory and need to evade capture and survive. Combat troops in survival situations in enemy territory also need to evade capture and survive. I'm not evading capture.

If I'm lost, the first things I want are to be visible and to be still so I can be located. I want to remain well-hydrated and well-fed if at all possible.

Your mileage will vary. Your need for a fresh pot of hot coffee will vary. The need for a garlic press, however, never varies.

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#123995 - 02/15/08 10:54 PM Re: weight vs. value [Re: philip]
Hacksaw
Unregistered


I buy pre-pressed garlic in the tube. Sacrilage maybe but it gets garlic into the camping pot!

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#123996 - 02/15/08 10:57 PM Re: weight vs. value [Re: Leigh_Ratcliffe]
Blast Offline
INTERCEPTOR
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3760
Loc: TX
Quote:
I think that the goods found with him were his E.D.C. Every thing else was taken by his attackers/murderers.


Yes, I knew he had been attacked and fatally wounded, but I wasn't aware that his attackers had caught him and stolen his gear. I wonder why they left his copper axe. At the time this axe would have been very valuable as it wasn't something one person could make on their own. It required a community to mine, smelt and cast the copper for his axe.

-Blast


Edited by Blast (02/15/08 10:57 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling, of course
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#124004 - 02/16/08 12:12 AM Re: weight vs. value [Re: Blast]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
I don't think they caught him. IIRC they found more than Ozzie's DNA; so he drew some blood and got away, that's why he still had what was found with him. Didn't they determine that Ozzie was a traveler and that he probably found himself in the wrong place defending himself? Where/when/how was it determined he was "attacked for his herd/goods"?
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