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#119429 - 01/08/08 11:20 PM Re: Taser Parties [Re: ]

Originally Posted By: IzzyJG99

The Canadian Government apparently had an independent medical examiner from the U.S. do another autopsy on the body. I believe it was Cyril Wecth who did it. He ruled that the death was most likely caused by prolonged use of not one, but two tasers on the man leading his heart to beat irregularly and stop functioning. Ironically enough he also said if they'd zapped him once more it might've kept him alive.

A second autopsy was not done, especially by the infamous Cyril Wecht....

There were some further toxicology tests ordered which findings have still not been announced..AFAIK.

#119503 - 01/09/08 06:18 PM Re: Taser Parties [Re: ChristinaRodriguez]
Arney Offline

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
I like Tasers, so I am a bit loath to mention this because they seem so hokey, but anyone checked out the new leopard print version of the C2 that just came out for the Consumer Electronics Show? Or the new holster that also has a built-in MP3 player? It's on the Taser website.

There's also a new C2 infomercial on the Taser website, hosted by the familiar John Burnell. Not really informative at all. Actually, since it repeats the same limited info over and over, I have a feeling that the video was primarily meant to play at their CES booth, and not be viewed online or on TV.

#119637 - 01/10/08 10:37 PM Re: Taser Parties [Re: Arney]
Art_in_FL Offline

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2432
ironraven - "The reason why I'm asking is because the targeted neuromuscular interference created by a current generation Taser is due to the fact that probes are under your skin. It's 26V (which is why everything has a "26" in the model number) at itsy-bitsy but variable amperages."

Funny how you want documentation for my claims but then go on to claim a "fact" which is a canard. As the saying goes: 'You can have your own opinion but you don't get your own facts'.

Point being that I have a background in power electronics, understand how they work, and have been hit with both a taser and stun gun. Both feel quite similar. The taser was a little stronger but likely for the reason I mentioned previously.

I'm not used to doing research for people unpaid but you can find a few reasonably accurate answers here, I don't vouch for the site, it was one of the first to show up on a Google search. But the information lines up pretty well with what I already knew but no guarantees. You could track down the manufacturers site and check but I suspect these pages are copies of the manufacturers sheets.


A few notes:

The M-18 taser is a very commonly used model by police. Lots of police around here use this model. I understand it is much like other designs.

The "26" you note is so commonly used in the model number is the wattage applied by the taser. Not the voltage. Actual input voltage for the M-18 is eight 1.5v batteries, 12v. Output voltage is claimed to be 50,000v. Sounds about right as it felt like a stun gun that also claimed a 50,000v output.


A few quick notes:

The M-18 has a set of probes out front that allow it to be used as a stun-gun. See #8. Stun gun and taser share a common electrical mechanism.

The darts don't need to penetrate the skin. See #7. They claim the probes just have to get within 2" or the person to have some effect.

If you want more detailed answers, and have the finer points of biological and neurological effects filled in, your welcome to do your own research and report back. I have backed my claims and proved my point. Enough said.

#119686 - 01/11/08 06:55 AM Re: Taser Parties [Re: Art_in_FL]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
Hi Art, I'm not trying to bust on you. Your first post made it sound like there was no difference between a Taser and contact stunner other than the probes, and that's just not so. If I misunderstood what you were saying, I apologize.

I did some digging- yeah, wattage. Lesson here, don't believe the gun rag articles. I had to dig through my back issues, and several of them did clearly say voltage. *blush* My bad for passing on bad data.

My background includes control systems- I've been shocked more than a few times. As I said, it hurts, but it rarely makes your muscle control overload. A few times my hand didn't want to obey me, but I could move my legs and my other hand. The only time I've really lost control was being cheap and stupid and trying to fix a CRT monitor, but that is a LOT more charge than anything we are talking about here. All the contact stunners are is DC, no pulsing, it is like hitting one of those newer, orange wire cattle fences. I've never seen a "stungun" that does what a Taser does, and I've owned and played with several stunners. Even built a couple.

The Tasers use a regulated pulse, it (mostly) jams specific nerves rather than hammering at every frequency. AC of any cycle is different from DC in how it makes your body react, and if you can tune the signal you are going to effectively turn nerves off by remote- or did I completely miss the point of several lectures in college? You are talking about the M18- is this the older one the M26 replaced? If so, the older generation delivered a different pattern of pulses and much less power. Same technology, but not as effective- that is why you have various rather infamous bits of footage with people continuing to effectively resist while being shocked.

You talk about how it "feels"- yes, it hurts. But how something "feels" is a subjective experience, not something that has quantifiable value. Personally, I think 25VDC at an amp hurts a lot more than household AC, but that doesn't mean that either one is less stupid to stick your finger into than the other. That 25V hurts about as much my old 40KV stun gun did as far as I could tell. I've seen pictures of a Taser's signal on an o-scope (nice spikes), and I've put stunners (DC transformer, no surprises when it is flat) on scopes myself- looks different to me. The results based on the body of collected evidence are also different. Ergo, the two classes of devices aren't the same.

When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

#119689 - 01/11/08 09:33 AM Re: Taser Parties [Re: ironraven]
James_Van_Artsdalen Offline

Registered: 09/13/07
Posts: 449
Loc: Texas
A taser can certainly kill someone - depends on all sorts of things. It takes very little amperage to interfere with the hearthbeat, but it has to be in the right place. People with implanted pacemakers and the like are definitely going to be vulnerable depending on where you hit them. There have also been quite a few deaths in the US where, like the Canadian guy, there is no other explanation.

(some people survive lightning strikes that conduct through them so you can't say tasers always kill. Then again, lightning strike victims often die too)

Anyone using a taser needs to keep in mind it might well be fatal, and you don't know ahead of time if the target has a defibrillator implant, etc. When it's needed fine - it's less risk of death than a .45! - but keep in mind there is a risk. "Backtalk" is not a good reason.

And use the time to escape! If someone uses such a weapon on me you can bet that if I don't see a police uniform after I recover I will use all means available to defend myself against another attack...

#119716 - 01/11/08 03:46 PM Re: Taser Parties [Re: Arney]
ChristinaRodriguez Offline

Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 324
Loc: Rhode Island
Originally Posted By: Arney
I like Tasers, so I am a bit loath to mention this because they seem so hokey, but anyone checked out the new leopard print version of the C2 that just came out for the Consumer Electronics Show? Or the new holster that also has a built-in MP3 player? It's on the Taser website.

Hokey indeed. The built-in MP3 player is, in my opinion, a major design flaw. Everybody knows that a chick listening to music and tuning out the rest of the world makes a prime target. They're just encouraging lax behavior instead of reinforcing situational awareness.

I can't tell how big it is, but purse space is often at a premium and designers need to keep size and weight in mind. It is easy to get a chick to carry pepper spray precisely because the units can be tiny.


#119721 - 01/11/08 04:09 PM Re: Taser Parties [Re: ChristinaRodriguez]

There was another Taser related death in Canada at a Nova Scotia prison. Sounds like the Canadian taser laws might end up getting even more strict in the near future.

#119731 - 01/11/08 05:34 PM Re: Taser Parties [Re: Art_in_FL]
Arney Offline

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Art_in_FL
The only substantial difference is that the stun gun depends on exposed studs to make the connection while a taser uses darts that much more reliably make a good connection.

I suppose there's some personal judgement involved, but I would disagree that the main difference is just at the point of contact. If I hooked up two long wires to the probes of a stun gun and clipped them to someone, I would still say that the Taser is delivering a different type of discharge.

Stun guns are very high voltage (I see 1 million volt models advertised), low amperage, DC devices. Usually only a handful of mA of current, which your typical 9V battery can support.

From this article:
Introduction of the Taser into British policing. Implications for UK emergency departments: an overview of electronic weaponry. Emerg Med J 2004;21:136140

The authors state, "The Advanced Taser delivers a sequence of half sine wave current pulses, each having a peak amplitude of about 18 amps and a duration of about 11 microseconds. The peak voltage output of the device is as high as 50 000 volts." Still DC, but now rapidly pulsing, unlike the constant DC discharge of a stun gun. Tasers don't use as high a voltage as many/most stun guns but are higher powered, requiring a brick of AA batteries or a lithium ion battery pack, as in the new C2 model. The authors don't mention whether the pulsing characterstics are constant or change, so it's possible that the Taser unit adjusts the discharge as well, but that's just conjecture on my part. For example, perhaps the peak amplitude is highest at the start of the discharge, but gradually tapers because the subject's muscles will be quite fatigued by then, particularly at the end of a 30-second long C2 discharge. I only mention this possibility because of some foggy recollection of something I read a long time ago regarding the Taser, but maybe it was just marketing BS.

The authors further explain that it is thought that the high frequency pulsing helps protect the subject of a Taser strike from cardiac disturbances from the discharge because high frequency discharges will tend to remain on the surface of the conductor, in this case, the skin. Like a Faraday cage effect. This helps protect the heart and other internal organs from the brunt of the discharge, particularly the longer shock times (30 seconds) of the C2 model, and would theoretically seem to help distribute the charge to even more muscles and nerves near the skin than a simple DC current would propogate. (my opinions, not the authors')

Is this really different or just a tweak of the same thing? Well, that's in the eye of the beholder, I suppose. But to me, a stun gun does not work the same as a Taser, although Tasers are an evolution of the original stun guns, so of course, there is a great deal they have in common.

#119779 - 01/12/08 02:08 AM Re: Taser Parties [Re: ]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
Canada seems to be having an abnormal number of fatalities compared to the US and EU. I doubt the devices are different, and I strongly doubt Canadians are all that different internally (even if we can't teach you to say "out" right :P ). That leaves how the tool is being used.

I've heard a couple of places that some of your Taser fatalities had multiple units shocking them at the same time. That just sounds like a bad idea, from a signals perspective.

When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

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