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#119146 - 01/07/08 04:25 AM Re: Taser Parties [Re: Stretch]
ame Offline
Member

Registered: 10/15/05
Posts: 162
Loc: Korea
Originally Posted By: Stretch

Tasers are non-lethal.


Tasers have killed people, ergo, tasers are lethal.

A

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#119148 - 01/07/08 04:33 AM Re: Taser Parties [Re: ame]
Stretch Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 707
Loc: Alamogordo, NM
Water killed a girl near San Francisco last year or year before. She drank too much at an outdoor event (water drinking contest).
Ergo, I stand corrected. - EVERYTHING is lethal.


Edited by Stretch (01/07/08 04:34 AM)
_________________________
DON'T BE SCARED
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#119157 - 01/07/08 12:19 PM Re: Taser Parties [Re: ame]
aardwolfe Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/22/01
Posts: 924
Loc: St. John's, Newfoundland
Originally Posted By: ame
Tasers have killed people, ergo, tasers are lethal.


People have died after being hit with a Taser. That's not the same thing as being killed by a Taser.

The guy at Vancouver airport, for example, died after being zapped with two Tasers. However, the autopsy was unable to determine what killed him.

Are you aware of any Taser-related death in which it has been proven that the Taser caused or even contributed to the person's death? My understanding is that, in every case so far, it has either been determined that the Taser did not cause the person's death, or the autopsy was unable to pinpoint the cause of death.

I don't own stock in the Taser company or have any other vested interest in it, btw.

_________________________
"The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled."
-Plutarch

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#119249 - 01/07/08 09:55 PM Re: Taser Parties [Re: ]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
People want the 'perfect' weapon.

They want something that will stop (100%) a seven-foot, 350lb guy on Angel Dust, but not harm or scare a child.

They want a gun that almost kills.

They want a weapon that will put a bad guy in suspended animation, but if he gets it away from them, he can't do the same to them.

IOW, people have been watching WAAAAAAY too much fiction.

Sue

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#119299 - 01/08/08 02:24 AM Re: Taser Parties [Re: ironraven]
picard120 Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 07/10/05
Posts: 763
Originally Posted By: ironraven
too much information.... whistle


No, No. we need more info. this is better news than PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. election. grin grin

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#119301 - 01/08/08 02:32 AM Re: Taser Parties [Re: ame]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
Ame, let's say you have left me no choice but to shoot you. I know, unlikely, but just for the sake of argument.

*holds up a Taser in my left hand*
*holds up a .45 in my right hand*

Choose, but choose wisely.

Seriously, I would love to find a completely non-lethal defensive device, I really would. But even in Star Trek, a repeated hits from a phaser set to stun can kill. Expecting a perfectly non lethal but perfectly and instantly effective wonder weapon is not realistic and never will be. "Non-lethal" is a myth, always will be. "Less lethal" is the goal people have in mind.

People have died due to allergic and sever asthmatic reactions from pepper spray and mace.

Various low-lethality projectiles can be used to kill, just aim for the head at very close range, even a blank can kill.

Batons can kill and maim very easily, anyone who's ever studied serious stick fighting knows that, or is just unlucky, particularly if someone is not able to feel pain or simply over powers you when you get close enough to try for locks.

Jabby-zappy stunners can't kill without some very odd circumstances, but do the the higher voltage if the planets are aligned wrong they are very easily able to do so- if they don't, someone can fight through them, and at knife fighting range...

And hand-to-hand requires a lot of training and isn't as effective against crazies and drunks as you might think unless you are willing to break bones and if need be kill them with your bare hands, because you have no stand off.

Realistically, the Taser is one of the best tools out there in terms of less-lethal, but it is only one of the ones available. There are ways in which it can kill. But I can kill and maim with my bare hands easier than I can with a properly applied Taser. If you are going to defend yourself, there is the possibility that only lethal force will work, or that the other guy is just unlucky and dies. That they might die is better than you dieing.
_________________________
-IronRaven

When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

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#119344 - 01/08/08 02:00 PM Re: Taser Parties [Re: ironraven]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
"It's a helluva thing, killing a man. You take away all he has, and all he's ever gonna have." Eastwood

The threat of lethal force deters crime. Anything less would be uncivilized. I don't use a taser, a stun gun, pepper spray, mace, or a stick for the same reason I don't bring a knife to a gunfight. An awful lot of violent crime is committed with a firearm, so I at least want to match the threat. Wouldn't you agree? At least that seems to be the most effective approach I've heard of.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#119395 - 01/08/08 07:55 PM Re: Taser Parties [Re: Susan]
frenchy Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/18/02
Posts: 1320
Loc: France
now that you mentioned it .... if I could find one of these "Weapon Shops of Isher" .... grin
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Alain

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#119402 - 01/08/08 08:33 PM Re: Taser Parties [Re: Stretch]
aardwolfe Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/22/01
Posts: 924
Loc: St. John's, Newfoundland
Look up "hyponatremia" on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyponatremia#Notable_cases

Notable cases

Matthew Carrington, a student at California State University in Chico, California, died of hyponatremia in February 2005 during a fraternity hazing ritual [1].

James McBride, a police officer with the Metropolitan Police Department of the District of Columbia, died of hyponatremia on August 10, 2005. Officer McBride had been participating in a strenuous bicycle patrol training course. During a 12-mile (19 km) training ride on the second day of the course, Officer McBride drank as much as three gallons (11 liters) of water[2].

Leah Betts[4] died on the 16th of November 1995 after taking an ecstasy tablet at her 18th birthday party and subsequently drinking too much water; the case received mass media coverage throughout the United Kingdom, which focused on the dangers of ecstasy.

In January 2007 Jennifer Strange, a woman in Sacramento, California, died following a water-drinking contest sponsored by a local radio station, Sacramento-based KDND-FM.[3]. The fact that the contest was called, "Hold your wee for a Wii" has led some to believe that not urinating is related to hyponatremia. This is untrue; this type of water intoxication is caused by excessive and rapid consumption of (sodium-free) water.

After completing the 2007 London Marathon, 22-year-old David Rogers collapsed and later died as a result of hyponatremia.[4]
--------------------------
As you say, *everything" is lethal in sufficient quantities.
_________________________
"The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled."
-Plutarch

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#119410 - 01/08/08 09:05 PM Re: Taser Parties [Re: ]
aardwolfe Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/22/01
Posts: 924
Loc: St. John's, Newfoundland
Originally Posted By: IzzyJG99

The Canadian Government apparently had an independent medical examiner from the U.S. do another autopsy on the body. I believe it was Cyril Wecth who did it. He ruled that the death was most likely caused by prolonged use of not one, but two tasers on the man leading his heart to beat irregularly and stop functioning.


Is this the same Cyril Wecht who is facing 84 criminal charges in Pittsburgh?

PITTSBURGH - Attorneys for celebrity pathologist Cyril Wecht are trying to stop federal prosecutors from dropping more than half the 84 criminal counts he faces. (Posted on Thu, Jan. 3, 2008)

He appears to be someone who has built a very lucrative business as a consultant offering second opinions; I know that some of these "professional expert witnesses" have the reputation of saying whatever their employers want them to say, as long as it doesn't constitute outright perjury; although I don't know whether Wecht is one of them, I'd have to know a lot more about the man to give full credence to any of his testimony at this point.

I can't find anything on the web about an independent medical examination of Robert Dziekanski. Do you have a citation for it?


_________________________
"The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled."
-Plutarch

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