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#111007 - 11/01/07 02:54 PM Re: Backpacker Magazine and wild suggestions... [Re: Glock-A-Roo]
Hikin_Jim Offline
Sheriff
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 10/12/07
Posts: 1804
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: Glock-A-Roo
I also agree w/ the notion of UL guys really riding the razor's edge (pun intended!) where any nontrivial "oh shiite!" situation is a recipe for disaster.


There are shiites on the trail?? shocked Wow, and here I thought I was prepared for everything. smile

Glad you liked the pics.
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#111008 - 11/01/07 02:56 PM Re: ....wild suggestions & sacred categories [Re: NightHiker]
Hikin_Jim Offline
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Pooh-Bah

Registered: 10/12/07
Posts: 1804
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: NightHiker
If I come across their remains in the wilderness I'll mark their position on both my map and GPS and rummage through their gear to see if there's anything I can use. wink


Just watch out for the razor blades. grin
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#111019 - 11/01/07 03:48 PM Re: Backpacker Magazine and wild suggestions... [Re: Hikin_Jim]
frenchy Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/18/02
Posts: 1320
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Hikin_Jim

Well, for the record no one that I've ever heard of does 50 - 60 miles in a day. A week, yes, but not in a day. 20 miles is very high mileage in day with an overnight pack. Typically, on a backpack, my goal is 8 - 12 miles for a day. 12 miles can be pretty exhausting depending on the terrain.


La Diagonale des Fous (literally = the diagonal of the insane !!)
for the 2007 session, the length was 150km (about 93 miles)and the winner took all of 23h and 33 minutes to cover it.
And that's not on flat land : starting at sea level, runing thru passes at over 3000m, arriving at sea level... about 8700m of total ascents...

Granted : that's not hiking !! And those guys - and gals - are indeed insane, crazy, mad, and anything you want to name it !!
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#111029 - 11/01/07 04:29 PM Re: Backpacker Magazine and wild suggestions... [Re: frenchy]
Hikin_Jim Offline
Sheriff
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 10/12/07
Posts: 1804
Loc: Southern California
[quote=frenchy
La Diagonale des Fous (literally = the diagonal of the insane !!)
for the 2007 session, the length was 150km (about 93 miles)and the winner took all of 23h and 33 minutes to cover it.
And that's not on flat land : starting at sea level, running thru passes at over 3000m, arriving at sea level... about 8700m of total ascents...

Granted : that's not hiking !! And those guys - and gals - are indeed insane, crazy, mad, and anything you want to name it !! [/quote]

shocked Wow. Yeah there are those Ultra Marathon types out there. I was just referring to us mere mortals. smile

Oh, and I'll be running like that real soon. Oh, yeah, I will.
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#111042 - 11/01/07 05:50 PM Re: Backpacker Magazine and wild suggestions... [Re: Hikin_Jim]
Hacksaw
Unregistered


The APT takes 5 to 6 months to thru-hike. That's at most 14 miles a day on average. I'm sure it's more complex than that but it's definitely not 50-60.

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#111066 - 11/01/07 07:17 PM Re: Backpacker Magazine and wild suggestions... [Re: Hikin_Jim]
SwampDonkey Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/08/07
Posts: 1268
Loc: Northeastern Ontario, Canada
Hi Jim,

I have hiked with both a Sat. Phone and PLB (plus traditional signals) but only on short duration trips, I agree with you they are heavy and very rarely needed; but put one to use in an emergency situation (especially involving one of your children or children you are responsible for) and they are light as a feather.

Most of my long distance trips involve canoeing where the extra weight of these electronic devices is negligible on the portages.

Judging by the news reports of the fire situation in Calif. right now it is no wonder flares are banned! Flares are not banned in Ontario but fireworks are banned in our Parks. Northern Ontario is a world of interconnecting waterways, we often have Restricted Fire Zones areas declared due to dry conditions but a flare shot over a lake to summons help in an emergency is an appropriate action (everyone who fires a flare is still responsible to be sure the remains are extinguished).

The backcountry areas I frequent have decent FM radio coverage, especially at night to find out about approaching bad weather or forest fire alerts; some local radio stations even have a service called "Campers Call" that allows people to broadcast short messages to others in the field. Cell phone coverage is iffy but for some reason in certain remote places it works?

The reason I bring up the topic of wilderness communication equipment is due to the frequency each year in our area that emergencies occur in remote locations and there is no quick, reliable means of outgoing contact with authorities.

Good discussion,

Mike

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#111123 - 11/02/07 01:51 AM Re: Backpacker Magazine and wild suggestions... [Re: SwampDonkey]
Hikin_Jim Offline
Sheriff
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 10/12/07
Posts: 1804
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: SwampDonkey
I have hiked with both a Sat. Phone and PLB (plus traditional signals) but only on short duration trips, I agree with you they are heavy and very rarely needed; but put one to use in an emergency situation ... and they are light as a feather.


Boy, and howdy; you've got that right. I sure wish I'd had something along on this one day hike that I did in 1984. My day hike turned out to be a three day hike with two unplanned bivvies in the wild. Guess where some of my "penchant for preparedness" comes from?

Question: How much did you pay for your Sat Phone and PLB? How much is monthly service. I've seen ads, and they've always been a lot of money.

Originally Posted By: SwampDonkey
The backcountry areas I frequent have decent FM radio coverage, especially at night to find out about approaching bad weather or forest fire alerts; some local radio stations even have a service called "Campers Call" that allows people to broadcast short messages to others in the field. Cell phone coverage is iffy but for some reason in certain remote places it works?


The good FM coverage you have may be due to terrain. I think it's a litte flatter in N. Ontario than here in California where we have mountains that go up to 14,500'. When you're in one of the canyons between peaks, FM radios and cell phones are dead, dead, dead. However, on many summits, FM radios and cell phones get some coverage, albeit spotty. One time I was on a summit in S. Nevada and picked up a Southern California cell tower. Talk about line of sight!

Originally Posted By: SwampDonkey
The reason I bring up the topic of wilderness communication equipment is due to the frequency each year in our area that emergencies occur in remote locations and there is no quick, reliable means of outgoing contact with authorities.


Wish I'd had one on my 2001 ski trip to Alberta. Went backcountry skiing and fell and fx my right femur. People hiked out for help, but that took a while. I sat in the snow, in shock, for two or three hours. A PLB or Sat phone would've been mighty handy.

Originally Posted By: SwampDonkey
Good discussion,
Mike


absolutely
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#111185 - 11/02/07 05:30 PM Re: Backpacker Magazine and wild suggestions... [Re: benjammin]
verber Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/02/07
Posts: 8
I regularly read the articles here, but haven’t participated in the forum community. I registered to comment on this thread cause a friend I introduced to equipped poked me.

A couple of specific responses:

(1) Hiker Jim said "Well, for the record no one that I've ever heard of does 50 - 60 miles in a day.". Well Jim, there are a few people I know who have done this... thought most were typically doing their 200+ miles as an ultra-marathon with support stations rather than as a more traditional hike. There are plenty of ultralighters who do 30-40 miles / day for an extended period of time. Several have done one of the long trails likes the PCT with an average speed on ~30 miles / day which includes rest days and stopping to resupply. These folks do hit 50 miles on some of their longer / faster days. Personally, I won't go this fast because I doubt I am capable of that rate of travel, but also because I found that I like 15-20 miles in a day. More than that seems rushed.

(2) ironraven suggested that "Most ultralighters have no back up plan if something goes wrong." That is not the case with most of the ultralighters I know, and I know a lot having been part of that community for something like seven years. Admittedly, sometimes the backup plan is to "be cold and wet"... but not so cold or wet that it puts the person at serious risk given the conditions. All of the ultralighter I know or have corresponded with bring firestartering materials... though sometimes the firestarting material might have other uses. I know of no ultralighter who carries less than 1L of water unless they are someplace that has an abundance of water. Most ultralighters I know do use some sort of purification (aqua mira seems to be the most common), though some forgo purification in placed deemed to be low risk. As was cited earlier, there is some decent evident that the water is pretty safe in some locations without purifying. I have talked with several backcountry rangers in the sierras (carrying heavyweight packs) who have forgone purifying their water for years without a single incident. Not having rain gear over their legs and wearing shorts? Guilty on some trips because when I am on an ultralight hike, I spend pretty much all my time hiking. While I am hiking I am warm enough without pants or rain gear. Remember, your legs are pretty much waterproof and dry very quick, and wearing shorts avoids getting pants wet which take a long time to dry. So I am active until I stop, I quickly set of my shelter, dry my legs, and then put on additional clothing and/or get under my sleeping quilt. As to everything is made from ultralight materials that can't take off trail use... Well, sort of depends where they are hiking. If folks are hiking on trail those "ultralight" materials are good enough. There are several people who have 6000+ miles on one of those <1lb silnylon backpacks. I would say that not bad. There are plenty of ultralighters who do go cross country. Many ultralights switch from the gossamer spinnaker cloth or light silnylon to something like dyneema grid, 100% spectra, or VX-21 core fabrics.

Now to general issues.... There has been a lot of misconceptions about ultralight backpackers on this thread. Sure, there are some wildly irresponsible ultralighters who don’t bring what they need and might really be putting their lives as risk… but this is rare, and I think it has nothing to do with “ultralighting”. It has to do with some people being stupid… hence things like the Darwin awards. Several times I have helps ill-equipped people get out of the back country. It's never been an ultralighter. It has been heavy-weight packers who exceeded their ability to cope (and didn't plan well), or folks who hiked in 10 miles with a cooler filled with beer and potato chips, and a blanket over their shoulder, and realized they were in trouble as night started to fall.

First, I would like to remind everyone that life is risky. Complete safety is an illusion, and even if it wasn't, it would be so bore that I wouldn't want it. Life involves risks, what is important is to balance the risk/reward tradeoff. Some ultralighters might be willing to accept a bit more risk to achieve their goals than people on this thread are comfortable with... but I think the risks they are taking is actually smaller than the risks they take crossing a busy street in the city.

Second, lets make sure we separate "safety" from "comfort". It is possible to be uncomfortable, even in pain, but still be safe. All the ultralighters I know are extremely thoughtful individuals who are aware, typically based on extensive experience, of what is needed to be reasonable safe, and don't step over that boundary. Many ultralighter are willing to forgo some amount comfort to achieve their goals. Pick any sport or activity and you will find highly regarded individuals who felt it was worth some discomfort to push the boundaries. For example, the teenage Jack Nicholas practiced his swings even after his hands bled for the activity. There was some risk... for example his abused hands ran a great risk of getting and infection... but that was a modest risk and worth the payoff to him. Likewise, ultralight hikers typically take reasonable risks which might leave them uncomfortable in some situations, but not at an unusually high risk level.

Third, just because an ultralighter isn't bring enough stuff for YOU to feel comfortable doesn't means that they are uncomfortable. I like my comfort. I spend most of my time on my feet hiking. Typically the only thing I do in camp is sleep. So for me, comfort is mostly about the hiking... less stuff is more comfort. In camp, comfort is about being warm, dry, and getting a good night sleep. For me, a tarp, down quilt, and on most trips and insulated air mattress provides that and weights less than 3lbs.

Fourth, my experience with survival, first aid, staying safe, etc... is that the most important item is your brain. I have seem people with a pile of stuff get themselves in a world of hurt because they didn't think. I have seen people with what I thought too little stuff do better than anyone else when facing a challenging situation. At it's core, ultralight is about using knowledge, techniques, and experience to leave stuff behind that isn't needed.

So how does this all work out? Let me give one small example. I have been on several trips where people were sure I didn't have enough clothing, and worse, I had what they though was a completely inadequate 1lb down quilt to sleep under. They were sure I was going to be cold. They were wrong. Why? First, I have learned that I run a bit hotter than some people, but more to the point, I had learned through careful observations what I need to start warm and comfortable. Like maybe people who switch to an ultralight style, I started out carefully. I would commit myself to use what I thought was the right "ultralight" mix of clothing, but I brought a drybag with "emergency" clothing that I would take out if I moved from uncomfortable to "at risk". I was willing to be chilled so I would know what MY comfort range was given physical environment, clothing, and my physiological condition. [One of the things I learned was not eating enough of being really tired meant I needed more insulation.] If you don't push into uncomfortable you don't really know what your limits are. If you are unwilling to stay uncomfortable for a while you won't learn how quickly you acclimatize (some people takes weeks, others days). After carefully monitoring my comfort, conditions, and gear, I have dialed in exactly what I need to be comfortable for a given set of conditions including a safety margin which takes into consideration the variance a specific location is likely to have. This didn't happen over night. It involved a fair amount of research, experience, and experimentation. To me it's worth it. In my overly prepared days I carried a 60lb pack and I found 10 mile / day trips exhausting and painful, but worth it because of the places I got to see. These days I am carrying a 10-30lb pack depending on conditions and length of trip, can easy hiking 20 miles in a day without feeling fatigued. One of my notes on this can be found linked into http://www.verber.com/mark/outdoors/


--Mark



Edited by verber (11/02/07 05:38 PM)

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#111188 - 11/02/07 05:50 PM Re: Backpacker Magazine and wild suggestions... [Re: verber]
Blast Offline
INTERCEPTOR
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3760
Loc: TX
Mark,

Welcome to the fire, excellent first post. It sounds like you/your friends are the sort of ultralighters that we can admire.

Our main problem with the Backpacker magazine article is that we fear it'll cause people without your level of experience to shed gear without replacing it with knowledge. That's a situation which could lead to a lot of misery.

You are definately right about a majority of people in need of rescue are either the totally un-equipped or standard-gear hikers. I have to wonder though if the standard-gear hikers need more rescues because there are more of them?

I think it all boils down to, "Don't be stupid in the woods."

Wow, did I really just write that?

-Blast
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#111195 - 11/02/07 06:40 PM Re: Backpacker Magazine and wild suggestions... [Re: verber]
norad45 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 1506
Welcome to ETS! What do you think of the article that is the subject of this thread? Your post indicates that you carry at least 1 liter of water. Do you also carry a real knife, or have you switched it for a razor blade? And when in unfamiliar territory, do you carry a map and compass?


Edited by norad45 (11/02/07 06:53 PM)

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