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#114313 - 11/30/07 10:15 PM Re: Bugout back for longterm use [Re: ]
NIM Offline
Member

Registered: 02/12/03
Posts: 128
True words! Not only is the knowledge almost gone but the land is stressed in ways it never was.

Gone are the flocks of birds so dense they would dim the sun enough to turn day into night. Gone are the great "chili givers" of the plains (do they need another name?). No longer will a school of fish impede the forward momentum of a ship...now I wonder... why aren't the blasted mosquitoes suffering the same fate?

-NIM




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#114350 - 12/01/07 02:05 AM Re: Bugout back for longterm use [Re: NIM]
Eugene Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 2995
I really don't see it possible.
Our ancestors didn't live in the woods alone. The early settlers were gathered around forts and farmed and shared and bartered their crops. The average lifespan then was somewhere around 30 to 40 years so cut your life span in half or figure every year puts the stress and wear of two on your body. They didn't have things like tooth brushes, they lost their teeth early on and even when they had dentists it was pretty much to extract the cavitied or infected tooth. Very few lived alone in the lifestyle your talking about, thats why they became legends. One out of 100 would attempt to live like that then one out of 100 that tried actually lived to become Daniel Boone or Davey Crockett, again rare enough that they did become legends. As others said you also had thousands of acres to hunt and gather on, you don't have these quantities of resources any more.
If you step back in history again to the likes of the Native American Indians, they survived be creating tribes, not a single people. You have to because sooner or later your going to get sick in some way and someone else has to be there to hunt for your food and take care of you so you can return the favor to them when they are sick. Even then without the benefits of modern medicine many died due to what might be a minor illness today so the statistics are against you again.
All through history the same pattern exists, we gathered together to survive because we could not survive alone. Might be a city, town, fort, castle, etc but we made some distinction from being a loaner.
I have recent history to go by, my fathers was the first generation in my family to have a job with a paycheck. My grandfather was a full time farmer who never earned a paycheck. He did some work for money from time to time, sold crops, livestock, logs, etc. But for the most part he was self sufficient. His farm was 200 acres total with cows, chickens, pigs, etc. He died when I was 19 so I got to see a little of life back then, I still remember being very young and going out with my grandmother to get eggs from the chicken coop or the meat hanging in the smokehouse. The house that my grandfather was born in is still there, the house that his mother was born in was turned into a barn and later torn down by my uncle who inherited that section after my grandfather died. There was a garage, tractor garage, smokehouse, chicken coop, pig barn, woodshed, the cave dug in the hill for long term food storage, two more buildings, and two barns in the valley, then three barns and a sheep stable up on the mountain. That farm supported him and his wife and their seven kids and his mother (I'm not sure when his father died, I have no memories of him so it mush have been before I was born or when I was really young). So it takes a lot of resources to be self sufficient, probably a bit more than what can fit in a pack.

Someday I will inherit half of about 100 acres, I have one brother who is entitled to the other half even though he has no interest in it. My parents bought land from my grandfather so thats why we have more than 1/7th of it. Its not the best land in the world, rocky and hilly and very little water. There are currently two ~12 acre hay fields and maybe 30 in pasture on their part then woods down into the valley and part way up the other side. My father is going to retire soon, too many years of driving across the state line for work as there are no real jobs there so I'm living far away and wondering what to do when my parents are gone. My thought is to pack the kids for a week around spring break and we plant a nice garden then go back in late fall to harvest and make some weekend trips in between. I really can't move there as there are no jobs and a terrible school system so I don't know how I'm going to maintain the fence or fields and such.

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#114364 - 12/01/07 04:02 AM Re: Bugout back for longterm use [Re: ]
CityBoyGoneCountry Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/04/07
Posts: 369
Originally Posted By: Hacksaw
if you have 10,000 bucks worth of training then it's possible you know how to make a palatial log estate with a small axe


That's what Dick Proenneke did in Alaska. You can buy the dvd at http://www.dickproenneke.com and you can see a 9 minute clip at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsfB6oJ55wM

I saw the whole thing on PBS a few years ago. The man has my respect. I can never come close to being that kind of craftsman.


Edited by CityBoyGoneCountry (12/01/07 04:12 AM)

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#114382 - 12/01/07 06:05 AM Re: Bugout back for longterm use [Re: ]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
Our ancestors are the ones who did it successfully. The ones that didn't aren't anyone's ancestors.

Survival is about using efficient methods and equipment to enact a positive outcome of a situation. If you die, that isn't very positive. :P
_________________________
-IronRaven

When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

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#114393 - 12/01/07 01:12 PM Re: Bugout back for longterm use [Re: ironraven]
Eugene Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 2995
Originally Posted By: ironraven
Our ancestors are the ones who did it successfully.


They didn't live successfully from a backpack. The Native American Indians joined together in tribes, the early settlers built forts and later towns. Even in medieval times people gathered around a castle and its king. There were very very few who lived alone few enough that they became legends.

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#114395 - 12/01/07 01:53 PM Re: Bugout back for longterm use [Re: Eugene]
CityBoyGoneCountry Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/04/07
Posts: 369
Originally Posted By: Eugene
They didn't live successfully from a backpack. The Native American Indians joined together in tribes, the early settlers built forts and later towns. Even in medieval times people gathered around a castle and its king. There were very very few who lived alone few enough that they became legends.


There were Japanese soldiers from WWII who lived for many years after the war alone in the jungle. Hiroo Onoda lasted for 29 years.

I think the hardest thing for most people to deal with would be loneliness. But for someone like me, that wouldn't be hard at all. I'm already used to it.

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#114408 - 12/01/07 04:03 PM Re: Bugout back for longterm use [Re: CityBoyGoneCountry]
Sherpadog
Unregistered


When I was in my early twenties, I lived in with no modern convieniences in an old leaky pup tent beside a river from mid April to early December. The river and surrounding land provided most of the basic food I needed to survive which was all cooked over an open fire with only a small pot and 8" cast iron fry pan.

When I needed stuff I could not make or forage for, I would take a job in the local area for a day or so and barter my labor for what I needed. Although I always wanted to live with no working or assistance of any kind, I soon found out that it is not possible to live entirely on your own in 100% isolation situation and our ancestors long before us also depended on the help and charity of others

Living this kind of life for roughly 9 months was the most fulfilling, yet most difficult thing I ever did. It was working from sun up to sun down 7 days per week regardless of how I felt or the what the weather was (below freezing to low 90's) just to get by.

Could I do it again for a year if the situation warranted..yes. For multiple years, the simple answer is no, not without plenty of help...and 99.9% of people should not be under any delusion they can regardless of how much preps they have saved or how much knowledge they have.

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#114411 - 12/01/07 04:12 PM Re: Bugout back for longterm use [Re: CityBoyGoneCountry]
Sherpadog
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: CityBoyGoneCountry
Originally Posted By: Hacksaw
if you have 10,000 bucks worth of training then it's possible you know how to make a palatial log estate with a small axe


That's what Dick Proenneke did in Alaska. You can buy the dvd at http://www.dickproenneke.com and you can see a 9 minute clip at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsfB6oJ55wM

I saw the whole thing on PBS a few years ago. The man has my respect. I can never come close to being that kind of craftsman.


Dick Proenneke's Alone in the Wilderness is on Detroit Public television right now..at least where I live. This show is very well worth watching for any outdoors orientated person.

Wikipedia has a good page about him...although I dislike the labeling of Dick as a "survivalist".

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#114420 - 12/01/07 07:00 PM Re: Bugout back for longterm use [Re: ]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
There is a very great difference between being brought up with survival knowledge, and being dumped into the situation, even with a reasonable amount of equipment.

Up to about WWII, it was second-nature for most people to "make do". And often it was making do with very little. It was all they knew. Even many young kids of six or seven knew what to do if they got caught outdoors overnight or lost for a few days.

But now? We are so used to so much comparative luxury, I don't know that many people could do it, day after day. And the way kids are brought up now, thinking for themselves hasn't been on the curriculum (from any source, not just schools) for a long time.

If we were hit by another Depression that wasn't even worse than the last one, it would be incredibly bad. And some people think we might be headed for one that would make the last one look like a walk in the park.

Sue

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#114481 - 12/02/07 03:39 AM Re: Bugout back for longterm use [Re: CityBoyGoneCountry]
Eugene Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 2995
Originally Posted By: CityBoyGoneCountry

There were Japanese soldiers from WWII who lived for many years after the war alone in the jungle. Hiroo Onoda lasted for 29 years.


How many soldiers didn't make though, thats what I'm trying to get at, for every one that lives to tell his story there are 100 that don't.

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