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#112562 - 11/15/07 01:41 AM Re: Stopping Cars with Radiation [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
DesertFox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/04/07
Posts: 339
Loc: New York, NY
Knew I should have kept that Willy's Jeep.

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#112566 - 11/15/07 01:53 AM Re: Stopping Cars with Radiation [Re: ]
raydarkhorse Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 510
Loc: on the road 10-11 months out o...
I'm an ex LEO but there is a huge difference between a laser (which does expand over distance) and a microwave emitter.
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#112571 - 11/15/07 02:19 AM Re: Stopping Cars with Radiation [Re: raydarkhorse]
Sherpadog
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: raydarkhorse
I'm an ex LEO but there is a huge difference between a laser (which does expand over distance) and a microwave emitter.


Thanks for the clarification on the above. I had based my previous post from here.

Finally, to avoid collateral damage to other vehicles, particularly on multi-lane highways, HPEMS is designed to optimize the antenna beam size, given operational frequency and the limitations of the antenna aperture size, which, together with system operational procedures (distance to the target vehicle and aspect angle) will assure the “illumination” of the target vehicle only. The tables below cite 1) HPEMS features, advantages, and benefits and 2) HPEMS comparison with other key competing technologies.

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#112584 - 11/15/07 04:28 AM Re: Stopping Cars with Radiation [Re: raydarkhorse]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
Don't count on it- you can keep an EM signal in cone measured in percentages of MOA, and when I've seen information on the earlier prototypes of this system in the past they had the effective range under 30 feet. This isn't exactly a new concept, it's just been flaky from a maintenance perspective, bulky, power intensive and expensive. If they have been able to beat those three points, it is good to roll as far as I'm concerned. More effective than spikes, safer than the PIT. Even if you don't take out the ignition or the fuel injector, if the fuel pump goes they are pretty much done.

As for the pacemaker issue, they are shielded by the body. You are a bag of mostly water- water is a great EM absorber. When you add in the degree to which the pulse is constricted and the low power, there are only two ways in which this could have a chance to effect someone- they are in the target car, or you are aiming it at pedestrians. The later is no different than aiming a weapon (or a moving car) at a ped. The former... By and large people with pace makers aren't going to be needing to be hit with one of these.

I remember the "it might cause an accident" BS was raised in Vermont when spike strips were first introduced, to. Or people with pepper allergies. Or the chance of someone being hit with a Taser who might have a heart condition. Specious argument- this isn't for a simple traffic stop, something like this wouldn't get used unless you've had plenty of chance to give up.
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#112585 - 11/15/07 04:29 AM Re: Stopping Cars with Radiation [Re: KenK]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
Unless your truck has a fiberglass body, all the aluminum foil will do is make it look silly. :P
_________________________
-IronRaven

When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

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#112596 - 11/15/07 01:18 PM Re: Stopping Cars with Radiation [Re: KenK]
Eugene Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 2995
Its already made of metal so its pretty much already wrapped.
What you want to do is look at the ham radio guys who ground everything extra well to keep their vehicles a good electrical cage.

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#112611 - 11/15/07 04:24 PM Re: Stopping Cars with Radiation [Re: ]
raydarkhorse Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 510
Loc: on the road 10-11 months out o...
They make a good case but there is a lot of electronic gear that is far more susceptible to EMP than cars or trucks. One miscalculation in the heat of the moment could cause a lot of damage. I believe it will have its place but not on crowded road for the same reasons you don’t shoot at vehicles or do a PIT on a crowded road.
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#112612 - 11/15/07 04:29 PM Re: Stopping Cars with Radiation [Re: Eugene]
unimogbert Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 882
Loc: Colorado
My prediction-

This emp-like shutdown won't work very well for a long list of technical reasons. (engineering judgement on my part)

But the sales job will cause the LEO community to demand the ability to halt high-speed chases and carloads of terrorists.

The feds, responding to LEO demands, will require that all vehicles have embedded within their onboard computers the capability of receiving, processing, and executing commands (like "shut down" or "brakes on now" or "continuously honk the horn so we know where you went")from LEO transmitters.
This is a simpler, more effective though totalitarian solution.
And if bystander vehicles are shutdown.... big deal. They can be reset. (unless there is a crash resulting but hey, that's the price of freedom from high speed chases)

I predict it will happen within 10 years. Perhaps as early as 5.

Next year if Osama is spotted in downtown LA and the LAPD is unable to catch him and the chase is seen on TV....


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#112615 - 11/15/07 04:52 PM Re: Stopping Cars with Radiation [Re: unimogbert]
UTAlumnus Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 1019
Loc: East Tennessee near Bristol
Quote:
And if bystander vehicles are shutdown.... big deal. They can be reset. (unless there is a crash resulting but hey, that's the price of freedom from high speed chases)


I don't see it happening unless there is some way to limit the vehicle effected due to liability. If they do put it in, it won't get used after the first lawsuit. Deliberately causing a third party vehicular trouble that causes a crash will get a serious $$$ award. Not to mention lawsuits due to financial damages. Employees with a limited number of late to work days would have grounds to sue all parties involved in the chase.

There are plenty of ways to stop a chase without this. It just means the individual departments would have to communicate better.

Off the top of my head:
Spike strip
Road blocks
Pit maneuver
Follow at a distance until a chopper can take over & drop back. they will have to stop for fuel sometime.

Plus the TV News has a vested interest in having the occasional chase.

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#112642 - 11/15/07 08:10 PM Re: Stopping Cars with Radiation [Re: UTAlumnus]
unimogbert Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 882
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: UTAlumnus

Deliberately causing a third party vehicular trouble that causes a crash will get a serious $$$ award. Not to mention lawsuits due to financial damages. Employees with a limited number of late to work days would have grounds to sue all parties involved in the chase.

There are plenty of ways to stop a chase without this. It just means the individual departments would have to communicate better.

Off the top of my head:
Spike strip
Road blocks
Pit maneuver
Follow at a distance until a chopper can take over & drop back. they will have to stop for fuel sometime.

Plus the TV News has a vested interest in having the occasional chase.


How is the collateral damage from shutting off the wrong car any different than doing the PIT in the wrong place, or spiking the wrong tires - all of which have already happened many times?
I don't think lawsuits against the cops are successful often enough to really be that much of a factor. At least around here the cops can pretty much shoot anyone they think they need to and walk free.

Maybe the TV news chase would be the biggest driver of the decision. But not that many cities have choppers in sufficient quantity to follow the chases.
LAPD may prefer PIT rollovers and spikes so they can see their unit number on TV....
Anyway, I predicted it here. Check back in 10 years. :-)

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