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#110773 - 10/31/07 01:24 AM Re: Backpacker Magazine and wild suggestions... [Re: Hikin_Jim]
widget Offline
Addict

Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 550
Originally Posted By: Hikin_Jim
Originally Posted By: widget
I completely agree with Hiker Jim, getting some lighter gear definately helps this old hiker up the hill! However, when it comes to the silly extremes some people go to to save an ounce, they are pushing the bounds of good sense.


Well said. That's exactly the balance I'm trying to strike. My poor tired knees don't take all that weight like they used to. I'm trying to pare down the weight intelligently. No leaching off of others or razor blades instead of knives here.


I'm 60 and sure feel a heavy pack! I would rather go slower, carry what I need to be safe than carry too little too far!
_________________________
No, I am not Bear Grylls, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night and Bear was there too!

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#110782 - 10/31/07 03:21 AM Re: Backpacker Magazine and wild suggestions... [Re: OldBaldGuy]
ki7he Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 44
Loc: SW Idaho
Originally Posted By: OldBaldGuy
"...I must have missed that issue..."

If I recall correctly, it was not long after Dorn took over as editor. Must have been at least six or seven years ago, give or take a few years...


If you could find the specific article I'd really like to read it myself so I understand the context in which it was said. I've been reading Backpacker for several years and although I may not agree with everything I generally find it enjoyable. I just have to decide for myself which things I agree with and which I don't (just like most publications). Not that I don't believe you but I do find it hard to believe Dorn would publicly make such an absurd comment. It's one of those things I would have to see for myself. It's hard to comment on without reading the entire article.

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#110818 - 10/31/07 12:28 PM Re: Backpacker Magazine and wild suggestions... [Re: Hikin_Jim]
norad45 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 1506
My comment regarding the stair stepper was meant to be sarcastic; my comment about stressing over a few ounces was not. I'm sure some ultralight guys are in terrific shape. And it doesn't matter to me whether somebody wants to hike 3 miles a day or 20. What I object to is having my tax dollars go towards bailing some dumb cluck's butt out because their ego or laziness drove them to carry inadequate gear. And even if they deserve to be "Darwined", they leave behind family who suffer.

I am hoping that most people who read that piece realize--like the people at this site do--that some of it is bad advice. Maybe the editor is just an idiot or maybe he is trying to boost readership with a little controversy. I know the gun rags used to do that. That's why I quit reading them.

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#110824 - 10/31/07 01:03 PM Re: Backpacker Magazine and wild suggestions... [Re: Hikin_Jim]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
Back in the late 80s and early 90s, we would backpack into the Olympics and the Cascades often, usually for a week or so at a time, and averaged about 7 to 10 miles a day with 40 lb packs each. Dad was in his 40s and my brother and I were in our 20s. I've not been up backpacking as much since I started a family, except the occasional elk hunt, which fetches me a good 5-10 miles a day with rifle and gear, probably not 40 lbs anymore, but if I shoot one, then it is a big hump to pack out the quarters all day and night.

I have seen folks up in the same areas jogging the same trail and route in a day that we spent a week on. They pass us going up one day, then pass us going the other way the next. Now we took those trips because it was a nice escape and we had the time and gumption to go take a hike. If you hunt elk, then you can expect to cover many miles a day scouting the herd. In any case, getting up in the "Thules" so to speak need not require an expedtion. That's what I bought a 4WD for. I can get to within walking distance of scenery, terrain, and animals not much different from what you describe and show. The trick is to find those pristine places that aren't so obvious that everyone on the road will stop and trash it out or otherwise crowd it up. I know of several caves around Mt. Adams that are within a couple hundred yards of the main forest service roads. You might never know they were there if someone else hadn't pointed them out, or some such event.

Sometimes I suppose the destination dictates a long hike, other times it just means a tough drive and talking to a few locals. The idea is to just get out and get in it, even if it means the big woods out the back door, but no need to rush it all the time.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#110844 - 10/31/07 03:48 PM Re: Backpacker Magazine and wild suggestions... [Re: norad45]
Hikin_Jim Offline
Sheriff
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 10/12/07
Posts: 1804
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: norad45
What I object to is having my tax dollars go towards bailing some dumb cluck's butt out because their ego or laziness drove them to carry inadequate gear.


Here, here.
_________________________
Adventures In Stoving

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#110849 - 10/31/07 04:11 PM Re: Backpacker Magazine and wild suggestions... [Re: widget]
Hikin_Jim Offline
Sheriff
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 10/12/07
Posts: 1804
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: widget
I would rather go slower, carry what I need to be safe than carry too little too far!


Absolutely. Couldn't agree more.

The trick is to carry enough to take care of yourself but not so much that you actually increase the chances of injury or getting into a survival situation.

I remember a few years ago XC skiing in Sequoia NP. Some people in my group skied with only a fanny pack and a sweater tied around their waist, which seemed reasonable at the start of the trip when it was in the high 30's with clear, sunny skies. We climbed to a pass called Panther Gap (~8500'), and, yes, I had to work a lot harder with my big backpack than the fannypackers. However, while at the gap, the sky clouded up, the temperature plummeted like a stone, and it began to snow. People started seriously freaking out. For a lot of them, with only their sweater tied around their waist to fall back on, it was a shiveringly cold, miserable, frightening experience. For me, I pulled out my sweater, fleece jacket, and GoreTex parka, it was no big deal.
_________________________
Adventures In Stoving

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#110860 - 10/31/07 05:30 PM Re: Backpacker Magazine and wild suggestions... [Re: Hikin_Jim]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
Quote:
What I object to is having my tax dollars go towards bailing some dumb cluck's butt out because their ego or laziness drove them to carry inadequate gear.


In general the ultralightweighters don't usually carry inadequate gear, they usually have the best lightweight gear on the market and they know how to use their gear to its maximum. These guys tend to be pretty clued up and have researched their requirements. They are generally knowledgeable and experienced with regard to the wilderness.

I would have to say that folks who are not used to carrying heavy pack loads are at greater risk of becoming a casualty out in the wilderness. Carrying 50lbs of gear over distances greater than a few miles leads to exhaustion and tiredness. This is when mistakes begin to happen. The FAK carried by most backpackers/bushcrafters/ETS's in most circumstances will not stave of a life threatening issue for a casualty. They are there to provide relief from annoyances such as cuts and grazes (for folks who have fallen over because their pack was to heavy) to treating foot blisters and headaches. A FAK is in fact a rarely used item for experienced outdoors people because they tend not to do silly things out in the wilderness because their brains are'nt starved of oxygen wilst carrying 50lb packs.

The experienced ultralightweighter also have become experienced in means of navigation using a map and compass (GPS's being to heavy). The map may have become a single colour laser copy of the area they plan to navigate (they don't need the additional map legends. They know how to read a map already). They know where they are and know where they are going.

The knife has become a unnecessary insurance burden to the ultralightweighter as a razor blade will suffice to open packets of dehydrated silver foil food packets. Survival is not an issue to the ultralightweighter because they are not in survival mode, they are in trekking mode, they are confident being in the wilderness because they are experienced with the wilderness. (although for a few onces more a good knife becomes a much more flexible tool.)

At the end of the day the difference between the ultralightweight backpacker and the ETSer with the BOB is that ultralightweighter is planning for what lies ahead and for what they know to expect from their outdoor experiences whilst the ETSer is planning for the unknown (a much more difficult proposition).

Rather than condemn, we should learn from the ultralightweighter. (even more so than the military - as they really don't have the knowledge of good efficient camping technique compared to these guys)









Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (10/31/07 05:33 PM)

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#110872 - 10/31/07 06:19 PM Re: Backpacker Magazine and wild suggestions... [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
My earlier premise being that Les is more, referring to the 7 day expeditions Les Stroud undertakes with what I would refer to as ultra-ultra light gear and a much greater sense of adventure, those knowledgeable in the ultralight arts are far less numerous than those who are simply under-equipped for the task at hand. Thereto, even the knowledgeable ones are hedging against the risk that they may encounter a situation they too are unprepared for, being geared for the most ideal conditions one could hope for. That being the case, it seems to me that the two biggest things working against the ultralighter concept are their dependence on the good will of their environment and any they might actually encounter, and that for the pace most of them seem to set to get to a destination wherein they find their zen, they overlook the countless miracles along the way. Most trails I travel would require my eyes to be fixated and focused narrowly upon the path before me so as to make sure of my footing, were I to travel at a pace greater than my usual stroll carries me along. Why someone would elect to traverse such magnificent terrain any quicker perplexes me, save for the preservation of life and limb.

_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#110880 - 10/31/07 07:02 PM Re: Backpacker Magazine and wild suggestions... [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
Hikin_Jim Offline
Sheriff
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 10/12/07
Posts: 1804
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor
Quote:
What I object to is having my tax dollars go towards bailing some dumb cluck's butt out because their ego or laziness drove them to carry inadequate gear.


In general the ultralightweighters don't usually carry inadequate gear, they usually have the best lightweight gear on the market and they know how to use their gear to its maximum. These guys tend to be pretty clued up and have researched their requirements. They are generally knowledgeable and experienced with regard to the wilderness.

I would have to say that folks who are not used to carrying heavy pack loads are at greater risk of becoming a casualty out in the wilderness. Carrying 50lbs of gear over distances greater than a few miles leads to exhaustion and tiredness. This is when mistakes begin to happen. The FAK carried by most backpackers/bushcrafters/ETS's in most circumstances will not stave of a life threatening issue for a casualty. They are there to provide relief from annoyances such as cuts and grazes (for folks who have fallen over because their pack was to heavy) to treating foot blisters and headaches. A FAK is in fact a rarely used item for experienced outdoors people because they tend not to do silly things out in the wilderness because their brains are'nt starved of oxygen wilst carrying 50lb packs.

The experienced ultralightweighter also have become experienced in means of navigation using a map and compass (GPS's being to heavy). The map may have become a single colour laser copy of the area they plan to navigate (they don't need the additional map legends. They know how to read a map already). They know where they are and know where they are going.

The knife has become a unnecessary insurance burden to the ultralightweighter as a razor blade will suffice to open packets of dehydrated silver foil food packets. Survival is not an issue to the ultralightweighter because they are not in survival mode, they are in trekking mode, they are confident being in the wilderness because they are experienced with the wilderness. (although for a few onces more a good knife becomes a much more flexible tool.)

At the end of the day the difference between the ultralightweight backpacker and the ETSer with the BOB is that ultralightweighter is planning for what lies ahead and for what they know to expect from their outdoor experiences whilst the ETSer is planning for the unknown (a much more difficult proposition).

Rather than condemn, we should learn from the ultralightweighter. (even more so than the military - as they really don't have the knowledge of good efficient camping technique compared to these guys)


I hear you.

Some of these ultralight guys are true pros (Andrew Skurka) who are very experienced and research the heck out of things. Each to his own, but the reason I don't go that route is you have so little to fall back on if a component fails or you encounter the unexpected. These guys often really push the edge, and in so doing potentially place a burden on others. I once ran into an ultralight type on the summit of Mt. Baden-Powell (9399') who was completely out of water -- he had only brought 1.5L for a double digit mileage hike. The next water was about 6 miles and he was already a little dehydrated. I gave him 1L of my water -- which meant that my margin of safety was reduced.

Some read about the very latest fad (ultralight hiking), buy the gear, and go out without really knowing what they're doing. It's these ultralighters and the just plain ignorant that have never even heard of the 10 essentials* that I have a little bit of grace for. They just don't know any better.

However, there are those who should know better yet fail to take proper gear either due to laziness, excessive ambition, or outright negligence. These I have little tolerance for and would be perfectly happy to see them charged for any SAR efforts on their behalf.

*ETS isn't a hiking forum, so a word of explanation:
The ten essentials is a list of items that was compiled some time ago after surveying rangers, SAR personnel, etc. Each was asked for a list of items that, had they been present, would have either prevented or ameliorated situations that they had encountered on the job. Using these lists, they compiled 10 items that were in common list after list. They are:
map
compass
light
sun protection
extra clothing
extra food and water
matches (or other ignition source)
fire starter (tinder)
knife
first aid kit

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#110885 - 10/31/07 07:38 PM Re: Backpacker Magazine and wild suggestions... [Re: norad45]
Glock-A-Roo Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 1076
Originally Posted By: norad45
...What I object to is having my tax dollars go towards bailing some dumb cluck's butt out because their ego or laziness drove them to carry inadequate gear...


I would object to that too... if it applied to true ultralight hikers, which was the focus of the magazine article. Look through the real-life threads here at ETS where people got into trouble and needed a rescue. Were the victims ultralighters? None that I have read.

I disagree w/ not taking a map, etc too but if you're going to complain about tax dollars, show me a real ultralighter who cost you some tax dollars, not a know-nothing tourist who hadn't a clue about anything (i.e. James Kim).

This reminds me of how so many uninformed people blame "climbers" in Yosemite for SAR costs. The vast, vast majority of SAR cases there are hapless tourists & hikers, not technical climbers.

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