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#110108 - 10/26/07 06:03 AM Re: would you drive a hybird car? [Re: Art_in_FL]
Tjin Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/08/02
Posts: 1732
not sure how the US market is set up, but in europe you can easily get small, affordable diesel cars. We even have little (if not tiny) VW Lupo's and Polo's with diesel engines at work.

Only problem is that diesel engines produce more fine soot particicals (more air polution), so the goverment has put higher road taxes on diesel cars.

the most enviormently friendly solution is obviously leg power and more healthier too. That and public transport is how i get around. If i do need a car, generally for work, i get one from mine boss.

_________________________


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#110129 - 10/26/07 12:08 PM Re: would you drive a hybird car? [Re: Art_in_FL]
OutdoorDad Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 09/27/07
Posts: 76
"...That said a whole lot of guys do seem to be compensating for something..."


Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
_________________________
If people concentrated on the really important things in life... there'd be a shortage of kid's fishing poles.

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#110132 - 10/26/07 12:34 PM Re: would you drive a hybird car? [Re: Tjin]
Art_in_FL Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2432
"the most enviormently friendly solution is obviously leg power and more healthier too. That and public transport is how i get around."

Unfortunately most of the US landscape is optimized for and centered around cars. Public transport is too often a bad joke. In many cities walking or taking a bike is pretty close to suicidal. I rode a bike for several years, and this in a city with a considerable number of amenities for bike riders, and every few months the combination of roads lacking room for bikes and drivers unfamiliar with bikes meant I had another 'bump and grind' dance lesson. Nice road cherries and my girlfriend lovingly combing the gravel out of my hide. The joy. It was only luck and paranoia that prevented my getting seriously hurt. In the same time two friends, who also rode bicycles, had life-threatening accidents.

I tried the busses but after I was late twice, and my boss told me if I was late a third time not to come in, I gave up on that unreliable system. A lady who used the busses told me the only way to make it work here was to always plan on catching the bus before the last one you wanted. That way odds were you either arrived an hour ahead or just in time. I wasn't willing to invest the extra hour each way. To this day I see her waiting, and waiting, for a bus to take her where she wants to go. One day she waited three hours before giving up. The bus had broken down and it wasn't replaced. Such is the way of smaller bus systems. They often lack spare busses. I now have a vehicle and give her a ride when I can.

Funny, tragic really, how things work out. We created a car culture and road design and architecture adapt to accommodate cars while, in effect, excluding other means of transportation. Have you ever tried to do some banking or get a meal after hours? Drive-through on a bike can be entertaining.

Go to Europe and most cities are bike friendly. Most locations have multiple modalities. If you don't want to use a bike there are walkways, trolleys, busses and trains for longer trips. And, of course, a car if you have one. In the US you either have a car or, in most locations, your a second-class citizen.

For the time being I think that individually owned cars are the only practical solution. I would love to see it more humane and adapted like in Europe but it isn't happening and it doesn't look like it will any time soon.

I really think that until the American people are willing and able to make major changes what we really need is a cheap, simple, easy to work on, efficient, people transporter optimized for two people and a sack of groceries. The EV-1 would just about fit the bill to get you work-home-shopping. You just remember to plug it in at night, when the electric load is lighter. If you want to go out of state or haul cargo you rent a truck or car.

Hybrids are OK but they seem to me to be overly complicated. Trying to do it all they lose a lot of efficiency. If the trip could be done on battery power alone the hybrid is hauling around an engine. If it needs an engine to get he range it is hauling around a heavy battery bank. Electrical generation plants are quite efficient at producing power. It makes sense to use them when they aren't otherwise overloaded. Like at night when you car could be recharging. But the hybrid needlessly repeats the effort in most cases by hauling around it's own generation station. A cord and plug would be much simpler and far lighter.

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#110178 - 10/26/07 07:14 PM Re: would you drive a hybird car? [Re: Art_in_FL]
OutdoorDad Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 09/27/07
Posts: 76
That's one more reason I love the USA! There are places for everyone and their diverse tastes. I like living in a small town away from mass transit and high density. I'd prefer a couple acre backyard to a local park any day.

There is even the option of Flexcars for those who would rather use one only once in a while. I prefer the freedom that having my own vehicles. Choice is good. You can even use a hybrid flexcar if you so choose.

I am very glad we have the choice to live in the place with the lifestyle we so choose. High density for those who prefer that and lower density for those who prefer that. Choice, diversity and variety is good.
_________________________
If people concentrated on the really important things in life... there'd be a shortage of kid's fishing poles.

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#110184 - 10/26/07 08:17 PM Re: would you drive a hybird car? [Re: OutdoorDad]
OutdoorDad Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 09/27/07
Posts: 76
ok... if I had to get a hybrid (if you consider electric cars hybrids!?!?) than I would go with this one
_________________________
If people concentrated on the really important things in life... there'd be a shortage of kid's fishing poles.

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#110192 - 10/26/07 09:26 PM Re: would you drive a hybird car? [Re: OutdoorDad]
Art_in_FL Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2432
An electric car wouldn't, IMHO, be considered a hybrid. Add a small engine and you would have a hybrid. The Tesla is an electric car. And yes, I would drive one. If I could afford the "base price: $98,000". Ouch!

From:
http://www.teslamotors.com/buy/buyPage1.php


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#110236 - 10/27/07 04:47 AM Re: would you drive a hybird car? [Re: Art_in_FL]
Paul810 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 1428
Loc: NJ, USA
Originally Posted By: Art_in_FL


Before WW2 cars were sized and fitted with an engine with a sense of proportion for what their role was. Cars were simple with engines that were often under 50 HP. Even heavy trucks had small engines. Load capacity was maintained by gearing. Trucks moved somewhat more slowly.

After WW2 came the 'muscle cars' and vehicles as symbols.



Not necessarily true. Horsepower limitation were based mostly on technology limitations and price limitations. People didn't need much more than 50hp because the poor brakes couldn't stop the car very well once it got moving, roads were poor, and for many a car itself was an expensive luxury, never mind having one with more power than another (not to mention price went up as HP went up).

Big trucks also suffered similar limitations. Most were chain driven, which couldn't handle much power (but they didn't need a lot of power either, because loads were often limited by braking [and power was made up for by gearing]). For example, My 1964 brockway only came stock with 230hp, but it had 20 forward gears. Once duel sticks (duel back-to-back transmissions) became illegal it was harder to get the amount of gears that they had previously, so power had to increase to make up for it. Not to mention pulling out on the highway with a 70,000lb load, while trying to shift two sticks, was a nail-biter. crazy Now big trucks are around 350-500hp on average, but often they don't need 20+ gears to get up to speed.

Cars started out as a status symbol, an alternative to the horse drawn carriage (look at the custom coach built cars before mass production). It only makes sense that they would continue to stay a status symbol, even though it is now possible for most to drive a car. There was always a want for more power, more speed, more fun. Without it we would have never gotten the flat-head V8 in the 1932 five-window business coupe.

Saying we should go back to driving 50hp cars, is like saying we should all go back to the horse and carriage. I like having powerful vehicles, but I also think there should be options. Not everyone needs or wants a 500hp sports car. Europe has it down pat, offering everything from stripped out, low hp/low torque diesels for those who want excellent fuel economy and low price, to high HP turbo gas models, V8's, V12's, ect. Unfortunately, we don't seem to get the lower powered models since they don't sell well here and we don't get the diesels due to our insane emissions standards. Hopefully though, the future will bring about some more alternatives. Technology is changing fast (and manufacturers are starting to get a clue).

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#110288 - 10/27/07 11:27 PM Re: would you drive a hybird car? [Re: Tjin]
UTAlumnus Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 997
Loc: East Tennessee near Bristol
And more noise. They can be heard at least 3 car lengths away if its in any kind of truck and the window is down. (pick-up through 18 wheeler).

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#110292 - 10/27/07 11:50 PM Re: would you drive a hybird car? [Re: Art_in_FL]
UTAlumnus Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 997
Loc: East Tennessee near Bristol
Quote:
If the trip could be done on battery power alone the hybrid is hauling around an engine. If it needs an engine to get he range it is hauling around a heavy battery bank.


That's not how hybrids work. Its not an either/or operation. Its either/or/both depending on the load from second to second. Sensors in the vehicle determine which source of power to use as the terrain, acceleration, etc. demand.

The Toyota system:

Accelerating from a stop you will be using either battery or gas and battery depending on how hard you accelerate. Once you are up to speed you will be using battery or gas or both depending on battery charge and speed. The system requires the gas engine to be running if you are over about 40 mph to keep from overspeeding the electric motors. When coasting or coming to a stop you are regenerating power. Stopping uses generator resistance up to a point with regular hydraulic brakes added in after that.

By using the hybrid system, you get the best of both worlds. When speed or power are required you have both the gas and electric motors. When all thats required is lower speeds or on flat ground you've got the electric motor and aren't burning gas.

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#110299 - 10/28/07 12:32 AM Re: would you drive a hybird car? [Re: sodak]
UTAlumnus Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 997
Loc: East Tennessee near Bristol
I couldn't find spec's on Honda's site before posting. From the pictures it didn't look like any of the current models were hatchbacks & the CVCC was the only one I remebered.

The Prius can carry four relatively comfortably plus cargo (about like the 80's Ford Bronco with the seats up for cargo IIRC). Basing multipliers on EPA test numbers for 2007 model year, your friend would probably be able to get 80/64 mpg city/highway.

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