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#108297 - 10/10/07 10:26 PM Re: Firearm EDC Challenge [Re: ]
UTAlumnus Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 1004
Loc: East Tennessee near Bristol
Quote:
this I don't think I would do unless I were in a 'kill or be killed'


Justified use of lethal force requires exactly that. To paraphrase the concealed carry course "you or a third party have to be in fear of death or severe bodily harm". There is some leeway depending on the situation (i.e. inside your home, etc).

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#108299 - 10/10/07 10:34 PM Re: Firearm EDC Challenge [Re: Farmer]
UTAlumnus Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 1004
Loc: East Tennessee near Bristol
Quote:
My daughter is not aware that there are firearms around


I'd have made the exact opposite decision. That way, even if she is not to ever touch them without permission/been told to, there is no curiosity even if she does find them.


Edited by UTAlumnus (10/10/07 10:34 PM)

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#108304 - 10/10/07 11:03 PM Re: Firearm EDC Challenge [Re: UTAlumnus]
bruce Offline
Stranger

Registered: 10/08/07
Posts: 2
Quote: "We don't know how we will act or react in a deadly situation until we are faced with one".

I had my turn in the barrel...I was faced with a break-in while I was home. Fortunately, I became quickly aware that I was in control, and used that control to defuse the situation and hold the perp. for the police. Yes, the wrong end of a 12ga. looking one in the eye at VERY close range can cause one to strongly question how one came to arrive at that point in their life!!!!

I have been a gunsmith for about 25 years, a line of work which put me around just about any sort of person who owns or wants to own firearms for home and personal defense and have formed an opinion about what types of handguns or longguns which make the best defense weapons. If anyone cares to listen, I will be happy to elaborate.


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#108306 - 10/10/07 11:37 PM Re: Firearm EDC Challenge [Re: UTAlumnus]
Hacksaw
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: UTAlumnus
Quote:
this I don't think I would do unless I were in a 'kill or be killed'


Justified use of lethal force requires exactly that. To paraphrase the concealed carry course "you or a third party have to be in fear of death or severe bodily harm". There is some leeway depending on the situation (i.e. inside your home, etc).


I wish Canadian law was phrased the way it is in the US.

Here you're only permitted to use enough force to neutralize the person who is attacking you and any more is excessive. The 'fear of death or bodily harm' has no mention or relevance. I have a favorite example: An old man confuses me for the sailor that slept with his wife in 1954 (I know people who've been shot under similar circumstances) only he's feeble and I easily overpower him but in the process you break his arm (in this case he could have a gun or a knife or nothing...it really doesn't matter)...he could sue you here because you used an excessive amount of force over what was required to stop him.

Obviously perception is going to factor heavily when and if it goes to court but all a good lawyer needs to do is paint the right picture and the attacked becomes the attacker. Often times in situations like the example, both parties are charged but the defender gets the heavier sentence because the attacker is the one who got hurt while the original attacker only gets charged with attempted assault.

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#108309 - 10/11/07 12:16 AM Re: Firearm EDC Challenge [Re: UTAlumnus]
Farmer Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 125
Loc: Mid-Atlantic
Originally Posted By: UTAlumnus
I'd have made the exact opposite decision. That way, even if she is not to ever touch them without permission/been told to, there is no curiosity even if she does find them.


I do this in deference to my wife who, as I said, is afraid of firearms. I do not keep firearms "handy" in the house, so there's no risk of my daughter stumbling across one.

If it were only my opinion that counted, I'd have my daughter at the range at least once a month.
_________________________
Knowing where you're going is NOT the same as knowing how to get there.

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#108313 - 10/11/07 12:50 AM Re: Firearm EDC Challenge [Re: bruce]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
LMAO!!!!!


Reminds me of a scene in a John Wayne movie "Cahill, US Marshal", where they come across a group of men they suspect of robbing the bank. One of the men tries to get the drop on Cahill with an axe, and just before he takes a swing, Cahill's boy yells out a warning. JW wheels around on the axe wielding dude and pokes a double barreled 12 gauge in his nose. On the screen you see those two barrels fill the bottom half of the view. Then you see the face of the would-be attacker with those barrels staring up at him, and you can't help but crack a smile on your face.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#108326 - 10/11/07 04:42 AM Re: Firearm EDC Challenge [Re: ]
UTAlumnus Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 1004
Loc: East Tennessee near Bristol
That would probably get you the same result down here unless he was a demonstrable threat (effectively he would have to have a gun or knife). You're right about perception playing a big role. The little old man or a lady home alone will probably have an easier time proving self defense than a younger man in decent shape. The way it was explained, you can be well within your rights but still expect to get sued civilly by the perpetrator or his heirs.

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#108327 - 10/11/07 04:42 AM Re: Firearm EDC Challenge [Re: Farmer]
UTAlumnus Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 1004
Loc: East Tennessee near Bristol
Check the search function. There was a thread a while back with advice about your situation.

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#108333 - 10/11/07 11:35 AM Re: Firearm EDC Challenge [Re: Farmer]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
If there's any way you can get your wife to try shooting firearms, she will likely allay her fear and realize the potential for good that having such an ability and availability might allow.

I've worked with a number of very intimidated people, gradually introducing them to the shooting sports by starting small and taking small steps in well controlled environments under full supervision and with constant encouragement. In most cases, after they shot their first magazine full of 22s through a pistol, their confidence exceeds their apprehension, and they are at least converted, if not hooked, that shooting can be a safe and enjoyable endeavor. It takes time, patience, and a decent arsenal, but once they take that first step, the success rate is pretty high for repeat business. The most important thing is to have an instructor that is proficient with firearms, but also knows how to work with people who have an aversion.

It's no different than with folks who don't know how to drive. They can be intimidated by that much power under their control, until they get trained and become familiar with how it feels and what to expect.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#108411 - 10/11/07 10:39 PM Re: Firearm EDC Challenge [Re: Stretch]
djk010468 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 16
I think you have misunderstood my point. And I don't appreciate your "think now." I know exactly what he is doing, because I have trained it from both sides.

My point is don't just stand there and think you are going to draw and shoot. Begin moving. AS you take your second step you should be acquiring your grip on your weapon. By the third or fourth, you should be shooting. But, you are also maintaining some distance. Don't backpedal, take off at 90 degrees from his line of attack, and as he adjusts, so do you. Run one foot in front of the other, like humans are designed to move.

Whether you move or not is absolutely NOT irrelevant. If you stand there, you will get cut. IF you move, you have more of a chance of getting good shots on him before he can close the distance.

And what commands? If he has a weapon and charges me, I am not going to waste time with commands.

I can prove that the 21 ft rule is BS, IF you know what you are doing, as I have said. I have an airsoft, and a training knife. I'll give you 21 feet, and bet you I get 5 or 6 shots on you before you get to me. I did it, repeatedly, just last month. And I'm not going to stop moving, so those shots are going to start taking a toll.

The 21 ft rule was born on a square range with someone whose feet were glued to the ground. And please, don't start with matches and IPSC. They may mean you are a decent shot, and I dont dispute that, but they mean nothing in a real world encounter.

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