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#103252 - 08/22/07 12:44 PM Re: 410 for the wife [Re: OldBaldGuy]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5338
Loc: SOCAL
Both dogs and shotguns take training to be really effective.
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#103256 - 08/22/07 01:06 PM Re: 410 for the wife [Re: AROTC]
Arney Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
Speaking of coyotes, I was just watching the morning news and coyotes came up. Happened in the community of Westlake Village, north of Los Angeles. Anyway, a woman (looked around 65 years old) was walking her two small dogs down the street of this suburban area when she noticed two coyotes running down the street straight at her and her dogs. She keeps pepper spray around her neck, so she quickly retreated while laying down pepper spray behind her as a barrier. Apparently that slowed up the two coyotes chasing her, but then she looked around and noticed three more coyotes "bounding" (her words) towards them from a different direction.

She ran to a neighbors house and took refuge behind the iron bars of his security gate, which protected her from the coyotes. Whew. I think she said that she's never seen coyotes there before, and she's shocked at how aggressive they were. Seems almost unbelievable--five coyotes in a suburban street?

Likely, the lack of rain in the region has affected the coyotes' usual food supply and driven them towards inhabited areas. Unfortunately, I wouldn't be surprised if the coyotes are being fed by someone or people's laziness about their garbage has gotten the coyotes accustomed to humans and not fearful of humans anymore. Just recently, a homeless person regularly feeding very, very rare coyotes in San Francisco's Golden Gate Park resulted in the coyotes becoming agressive against humans and the coyotes were eventually shot.

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#103262 - 08/22/07 01:18 PM Re: 410 for the wife [Re: Russ]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
True. In my experience, the dog takes more training...
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#103263 - 08/22/07 01:23 PM Re: 410 for the wife [Re: Arney]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
"...driven them towards inhabited areas..."

Unfortunately, coyotes live IN the inhabited area of L.A. Long ago I worked graveyards in South Central LA, and saw them all the time, a long way from any uninhabited area. I was guarding an empty parking lot (go figure) at Cal State East L.A. during the '84 Olympics, and around 0300 watched a pack of about 10 playing in the huge parking lot.

Glad the lady made it to safety...
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#103265 - 08/22/07 01:44 PM Re: 410 for the wife [Re: OldBaldGuy]
Frank2135 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/26/07
Posts: 266
Loc: Ohio, USA
There have been several television programs on "urban" coyotes over the years. They are extremely good at adapting their behavior to permit them to live, hunt and scavenge in the same environment as other, larger predators...including humans. It's pretty amazing, but then again, nature always finds a way.
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#103295 - 08/22/07 07:06 PM Re: 410 for the wife [Re: Frank2135]
RedANT Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/21/07
Posts: 2
Loc: Colorado
Why not get both a dog and a shotgun for her?

I believe that the dog would be sufficient to handle most situations. If, however, someone were to get past the dog, she'd have something more substantial to protect herself with.

People can sometimes be brave and slip past the largest of dogs sleeping in your yard, but I'm pretty sure that they'd take a small woman with any shotgun REALLY seriously.

The key to shooting accuracy is practice AND feeling at ease with using the weapon you buy for her. If she lacks the confidence or is scared by the gun, you MUST overcome that fear before proceeding. Shooting blindly/with eyes closed/or a severe shake just doesn't work. Start her with a small .22LR. Let her fire off a brick at the range. Get her comfortable handling the gun. The confidence will come. When done, move on to the next weapon. Perhaps something like a 9mm carbine or something that fires a .223 round? A .410 and/or birdshot isn't sufficient, especialy for last ditch self defense.

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#103338 - 08/23/07 02:55 AM Re: 410 for the wife [Re: Arney]
AROTC Offline
Addict

Registered: 05/06/04
Posts: 604
Loc: Manhattan
I can't say I'm convinced the coyotes were attacking her or would have attacked her. She was walking two small dogs which along with cats have become a natural prey for coyotes as urban and suburban areas encroach on coyote's natural habitat. With very few exceptions the documented attacks on humans by coyotes involve children, not adults. In any case, feral or domestic dogs that have packed up present a far greater threat to people and livestock then coyotes, no matter how bold. Packs of dogs have little innate fear of people and will also kill when not hungry (as evinced by packs of pets killing livestock and not eating the carcass). Finally, I think its clear that both feral dog attacks and coyote attacks are primarily the fault of humans (not specifically the victims) either by abandoning or otherwise not properly caring for their pets or by feeding coyotes and destroying their natural habitat and prey. Its hard for me to blame a hungry animal for following its instincts and hunting.
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#103351 - 08/23/07 12:53 PM Re: 410 for the wife [Re: AROTC]
Frank2135 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/26/07
Posts: 266
Loc: Ohio, USA
"Finally, I think its clear that both feral dog attacks and coyote attacks are primarily the fault of humans (not specifically the victims) either by abandoning or otherwise not properly caring for their pets or by feeding coyotes and destroying their natural habitat and prey. Its hard for me to blame a hungry animal for following its instincts and hunting."

I'm pretty sure the issue here is neither fault or blame. The situation exists; reality requires a solution, not an assignment of moral responsibility. On the individual level, the solution is to be wary of and prepared for other predators in your "hunting grounds".

On a community level, I agree, making this habitat unattractive for the predator and encouraging it to go elsewhere by preserving or enhancing other habitat is a useful approach. In the meantime watch your kids and pets, cover your garbage, and have the means to repel an attack. A hungry or sick coyote or feral dog isn't going to stop to debate the moral issues.
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All we can do is all we can do.

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#103383 - 08/23/07 07:09 PM Re: 410 for the wife [Re: Westwindmike]
Jezcruzen Offline
Stranger

Registered: 04/17/07
Posts: 12
Loc: Virginia
.410s are hard to find, and quality .410s are near unatainable. Besides, .410 shells cost more and may not always be available.

"Huck" gave you sound advice. A .20 ga. would be much better than any .410, and a .16 or .12 better yet.

It doesn't sound as if the type of weapon is the issue. It appears that your wife is simply against the idea of having a firearm with which to defend herself. Too bad. People unwilling to do what is necessry to defend themselves, whether from man or animal, are usually called victims in the end.

This discussion about "bird shot" is filled with misconceptions.

No. 6s are generally not considered as birdshot, being used most often for small game like rabbits. In the distances encountered inside a dwelling, a load of 6s is lethal enough to get the job done, mainly because the shot has not spread in that short distance. No. 4's work even better. Buckshot only works to penetrate interior walls, presenting dangers to family members that may be in adjacent rooms.

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#103471 - 08/24/07 09:23 PM Re: 410 for the wife [Re: Jezcruzen]
drahthaar Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/06
Posts: 110
Ditto the suggestions for a 20 gauge over a .410. But the key is practice. And, frankly, if the goal is protection against coyotes, I don't imagine that she is going to be walking around outside with the20 gauge slung over her shoulder at all times and if she can make it inside to retrieve the shotgun, then she wouldn't need to protect herself anymore from the coyotes.

Regarding the urban coyotes - I live in San Francisco and there are at least 5 coyotes in Golden Gate Park (the largest city park) and several more at other parks in the city. They had to kill 2 of them a few weeks ago because they had gotten aggressive chasing dogs (Presumably, they were protecting their 5 month old pup that was later found hit by a car.)

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