Ok folks, we are moveing out of the little town we live in and on to the family farm. My DW is a city girl and told me she wants me to teach her to shoot in case I am gone and she has to defend herself or the kids. From what I still have no idea but, what ever I guess. I have taken her out shooting before and she could not hit the target at 4 feet with a mark III 22. She wont shoot a 12ga, says that they are to big for her so I was thinking of a 410. Any one other then Mossberg make a pump 410? or any better ideas for her?

Every .410 I ever shot, kicked pretty hard. How about a Remington 1100 in 20ga? Maybe even a "youth" model. That would be soft shooting and more effective than a .410.
Just my $.02.

12 ga is just a bore size, the load itself is what you need to look at. A 12 ga shooting a reduced or light target load won't kick much. As for the actual shotgun size, find a used Rem 870 and take it and your DW to a shop that works on shotguns and can fit the gun to her. Fit is key to a shotgun not kicking. Not kicking is key to taking a novice and getting them to shoot enough to start shooting well. FWIW, $.02

A 410 is pretty small for any type of self defense. What I recommend is a Remington 870 lightweight Pump 20 gauge (shorter stock etc). My daughters each have one and can handle it fine. With #6 shot at close range it is devastating. A low shot at someone in the house would certainly take there legs out. Center of mass hit would be hamburger.
It can also be used with slugs for a longer range weapon. I have killed deer at 100 yds with my daughters guns. This is with a smooth bore barrel and I practice at that range.
with a 410 I would recommend to start a youngster out with 8-12 yrs old.

Huck

I agree with the others, get something like a Remington 870, in either 12, 16, or 20 gauge, and tailor the loads to her. There are also recoil reducing stocks available, such as this one that you could consider. I have never shot a weapon equipped with one, but have talked to others who have, and they love them. You might also get a short (18-20") barrel for it, much easier to maneuver in a building...

Short barrels rule for shotguns used in personal defense. They also work for Skeet.

It just hit me that with a requirement to tailor loads for the DW, Lance has the perfect rationale for getting into reloading. My recommendation would be #4 Buck with a reduced payload rather than using birdshot. In a PD situation penetration is the stopper.

Are you looking for something for her to use for defense or something for her to learn to shoot with? If its to learn to shoot with starting with a rifle will make her a much better shot, but you have to really focus on the fundamentals of marksmanship. Practicing with a .22 rifle in the prone and working on the fundamentals would be much better then practicing shooting a shotgun and letting the spread do the work. Then if she can shoot a .22 rifle with good form, she'll easily pick up a shotgun and she'll even have an easier time learning to shoot a pistol.

People miss with shotguns people. You need to get her a proper shooting instructor.Missing a target @ 4' tells me there is a great big hole in her physical abilities no firearm can fill.

I have to agree with Chris She needs to learn to shoot before you consider what gun to get her. After she learns to shoot well then the type of gun is up to her. While your teaching her to shoot do it at a range that rents guns so she can try different types and calibers

A good instructor would be nice, but I disagree that there's necessarily a deficit in her physical ability. It's probably more mental -- a severe flinch perhaps.

I've seen a lot of novice shooters get flustered at the noise of shooting. It's got to be fun so the noise is not an issue. Another thing I hate is when some d***head thinks it will be fun to sneak a hot load into the cylinder just to get a rise and a cheap laugh. This is a good way to develop a flinch and lose a shooter.

Target loads only, no explosive targets. It really pissed me off when one of the range employees brought an explosive target onto the range while I was trying to get a teen through a BOOM session. Not cool.

Skeet and Trap Clubs usually have an instructor and classes. Shotguns are great home defense tools if the guy/gal holding the gun is an active shooter. No stress fun stuff. Build good habits -- safety first.

BIRD SHOT IS FOR BIRDS!!!!! Buckshot or slugs are for Perps. If you need a link check out www.theboxotruth.com and search for shot shells in the original section. I have 20 gauge buckshot (#3 I think) and it shoots nice. It patterns better than most 12 gauge buck unless you use the tactical stuff. Also there is reduced recoil buck and slugs. And in combat (which is what self defense is) you won't feel any recoil or hear the blast. She can practice with trap loads and load with good stuff.

Take Care and Stay Safe.

Bird Shot and the BoT.

I should have said this earlier, but I was in a hurry. As I have said more than once here, before getting her too far into the gun thing, she has got to be CERTAIN that she could use a firearm against another person. Absolutely certain. If the need arises and she can not pull the trigger, the badguy will simply take the gun away from her, and things will really go downhill from there. Having a gun in the house, intending to use it as a bluff, will not work. You/she also need to check your state laws as to the used of lethal force. Some states will let you pop anyone who enters your home uninvited, others want you to abandon your castle to the bad guys. Use deadly force in the wrong place and you can be in deep doodoo...

Thanks for the info folks. For some reason reduced loads slipped my mind.

I did finally figure out what she thought she would have to defend against, and it was coyotes LMAO……. I live in Eastern Kansas and never has anyone around here been attacked by one. Now I know that dose not mean that it cannot happen , but I think I would have a better chance of hitting the power ball first. When I talked to her about shooting a person she said that she did not think she could do it, so yea all that would do is turn out bad for her.
As for deadly force around here, you have to feel threatened, and the way I see it that is a BIG hole for the law to put the screws to the average Joe who shoots the home invader or the rapist who slides in to you home in the middle of the night. But all the LEO’s that I have to deal with say that it is better to shoot them then they kill you.

Again thanks for all the info
Lance

Maybe she needs a dog?

Big dog preferably 2 big dogs. Coyotes will take a small dog right out of your yard.

I second (third?) the dog recommendation. A well trained, loyal dog is the best alarm and defense combined.

I kind of figured if she didn't feel the need for a gun as a city girl it probably wasn't people she was scared of.

"...OTOH, a shotgun doesn't need to be fed or walked..."

Or cleaned up after (other than policing hulls)...

And the bark is VERY loud.

And the bite is worse than the bark!!!

Both dogs and shotguns take training to be really effective.

Speaking of coyotes, I was just watching the morning news and coyotes came up. Happened in the community of Westlake Village, north of Los Angeles. Anyway, a woman (looked around 65 years old) was walking her two small dogs down the street of this suburban area when she noticed two coyotes running down the street straight at her and her dogs. She keeps pepper spray around her neck, so she quickly retreated while laying down pepper spray behind her as a barrier. Apparently that slowed up the two coyotes chasing her, but then she looked around and noticed three more coyotes "bounding" (her words) towards them from a different direction.

She ran to a neighbors house and took refuge behind the iron bars of his security gate, which protected her from the coyotes. Whew. I think she said that she's never seen coyotes there before, and she's shocked at how aggressive they were. Seems almost unbelievable--five coyotes in a suburban street?

Likely, the lack of rain in the region has affected the coyotes' usual food supply and driven them towards inhabited areas. Unfortunately, I wouldn't be surprised if the coyotes are being fed by someone or people's laziness about their garbage has gotten the coyotes accustomed to humans and not fearful of humans anymore. Just recently, a homeless person regularly feeding very, very rare coyotes in San Francisco's Golden Gate Park resulted in the coyotes becoming agressive against humans and the coyotes were eventually shot.

True. In my experience, the dog takes more training...

"...driven them towards inhabited areas..."

Unfortunately, coyotes live IN the inhabited area of L.A. Long ago I worked graveyards in South Central LA, and saw them all the time, a long way from any uninhabited area. I was guarding an empty parking lot (go figure) at Cal State East L.A. during the '84 Olympics, and around 0300 watched a pack of about 10 playing in the huge parking lot.

Glad the lady made it to safety...

There have been several television programs on "urban" coyotes over the years. They are extremely good at adapting their behavior to permit them to live, hunt and scavenge in the same environment as other, larger predators...including humans. It's pretty amazing, but then again, nature always finds a way.

Why not get both a dog and a shotgun for her?

I believe that the dog would be sufficient to handle most situations. If, however, someone were to get past the dog, she'd have something more substantial to protect herself with.

People can sometimes be brave and slip past the largest of dogs sleeping in your yard, but I'm pretty sure that they'd take a small woman with any shotgun REALLY seriously.

The key to shooting accuracy is practice AND feeling at ease with using the weapon you buy for her. If she lacks the confidence or is scared by the gun, you MUST overcome that fear before proceeding. Shooting blindly/with eyes closed/or a severe shake just doesn't work. Start her with a small .22LR. Let her fire off a brick at the range. Get her comfortable handling the gun. The confidence will come. When done, move on to the next weapon. Perhaps something like a 9mm carbine or something that fires a .223 round? A .410 and/or birdshot isn't sufficient, especialy for last ditch self defense.

I can't say I'm convinced the coyotes were attacking her or would have attacked her. She was walking two small dogs which along with cats have become a natural prey for coyotes as urban and suburban areas encroach on coyote's natural habitat. With very few exceptions the documented attacks on humans by coyotes involve children, not adults. In any case, feral or domestic dogs that have packed up present a far greater threat to people and livestock then coyotes, no matter how bold. Packs of dogs have little innate fear of people and will also kill when not hungry (as evinced by packs of pets killing livestock and not eating the carcass). Finally, I think its clear that both feral dog attacks and coyote attacks are primarily the fault of humans (not specifically the victims) either by abandoning or otherwise not properly caring for their pets or by feeding coyotes and destroying their natural habitat and prey. Its hard for me to blame a hungry animal for following its instincts and hunting.

"Finally, I think its clear that both feral dog attacks and coyote attacks are primarily the fault of humans (not specifically the victims) either by abandoning or otherwise not properly caring for their pets or by feeding coyotes and destroying their natural habitat and prey. Its hard for me to blame a hungry animal for following its instincts and hunting."

I'm pretty sure the issue here is neither fault or blame. The situation exists; reality requires a solution, not an assignment of moral responsibility. On the individual level, the solution is to be wary of and prepared for other predators in your "hunting grounds".

On a community level, I agree, making this habitat unattractive for the predator and encouraging it to go elsewhere by preserving or enhancing other habitat is a useful approach. In the meantime watch your kids and pets, cover your garbage, and have the means to repel an attack. A hungry or sick coyote or feral dog isn't going to stop to debate the moral issues.

.410s are hard to find, and quality .410s are near unatainable. Besides, .410 shells cost more and may not always be available.

"Huck" gave you sound advice. A .20 ga. would be much better than any .410, and a .16 or .12 better yet.

It doesn't sound as if the type of weapon is the issue. It appears that your wife is simply against the idea of having a firearm with which to defend herself. Too bad. People unwilling to do what is necessry to defend themselves, whether from man or animal, are usually called victims in the end.

This discussion about "bird shot" is filled with misconceptions.

No. 6s are generally not considered as birdshot, being used most often for small game like rabbits. In the distances encountered inside a dwelling, a load of 6s is lethal enough to get the job done, mainly because the shot has not spread in that short distance. No. 4's work even better. Buckshot only works to penetrate interior walls, presenting dangers to family members that may be in adjacent rooms.

Ditto the suggestions for a 20 gauge over a .410. But the key is practice. And, frankly, if the goal is protection against coyotes, I don't imagine that she is going to be walking around outside with the20 gauge slung over her shoulder at all times and if she can make it inside to retrieve the shotgun, then she wouldn't need to protect herself anymore from the coyotes.

Regarding the urban coyotes - I live in San Francisco and there are at least 5 coyotes in Golden Gate Park (the largest city park) and several more at other parks in the city. They had to kill 2 of them a few weeks ago because they had gotten aggressive chasing dogs (Presumably, they were protecting their 5 month old pup that was later found hit by a car.)

Actually my main point was that coyote attacks are very low on the threat assessment. I've seen several news reports whose main purpose seems to be spreading fear of a threat that really isn't there. I think those reports are pretty ridiculous. This one is a prime example. It describes how she had to take refuge at her neighbor's house "behind the iron bars of his security gate" as if a simple wooden door wouldn't have been sufficient.

The Mossberg HS410 and the Remington 870 are your primary choices. Load it up with Winchester's Super-X .410 000 Buckshot, and you're good to go for a home defense weapon that every member of the family can shoot easily. Don't mind the macho types who claim you absolutely *must* have a 20 or 12 gauge for home defense. You need to consider your wife's needs, and the fact that a home defense situation may involve darkness, short range, and thin walls.

Another good choice is the Taurus .45/.410 revolver. It takes the 2.5" .410 buckshot shells as well as .45 Long Colt. Personally, I think for home defense it may be a better choice, as a long gun can be difficult to handle to confined spaces. There are also some .410 capable derringers, though I think the Taurus revolver is probably a better choice.

Well, my wife was injured pretty badly with a 12 Ga recoil, so I can see her point. She now has a Mossberg 500 in 20 Ga, which is quite easy to handle, has far greater stopping power than a 410, and has far more options as to make and model. While I have successfully hunted deer with 410 slugs, it's not the sort of weapon that will have any meaningful stopping power unless you're using slugs, and place them well, or you're using larger shot at very close range, and even then I don't think it's got the slam factor of a larger round.

We've both the Remington 870 series and the Mossberg 500 series, I like them both, but I find that my hands just seem to fit the way the Mossberg is set up better. They seem to have identical mechanical reliability.

Her gun is the Mo9ssberg 20Ga 500 "Persuader" model, 18" barrel, with a recoil pad and a forestock mounted tactical light. It's light, fast and reliable, as well as being really low priced. We have a bead sight on it, it's painted bright orange with some model paint. It hits what you point it at.

Load it with 00 Buck and it's a pretty hard-hitter.
If you load it with a slug, it's a stop 'n drop weapon (as long as you hit in the right place).

HTH