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#101117 - 07/30/07 04:52 AM Re: Rebate Available on 60 Series [Re: JohnN]
cfraser Offline
Member

Registered: 06/17/07
Posts: 110
Loc: Toronto area, Ontario, Canada
My pre-"x" 60 series doesn't handle fresh lithium totally properly either. Now that I think more about it, I'm guessing it's the reset chip that gets a signal for over- (or under-) voltage from the regulator, and shuts the unit down. But I obviously don't know...

Thing is, quality alkaline have a shelf life of easily 7 or 8 years (practically speaking), and they last so long in these units anyway compared to batteries in the "old days" of GPS. Perhaps lithium are not a cost-effective choice here? These units have very low drain compared to a camera where lithium are great.

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#101267 - 08/01/07 03:43 AM Re: Rebate Available on 60 Series [Re: cfraser]
JohnN Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 966
Loc: Seattle, WA

Sigh. Somewhat predictably, Garmin managed not to answer my questions.

I wrote:
Quote:
My 60CSx has menu options for Alkaline, NiNH and Lithium-Ion batteries. I have always used lithium *primary* batteries (Energizer L91) in my previous Garmin units to save on weight, extend shelf life, and provide optimal performance. My previous units have always had a menu option for lithium which I took to mean lithium primary. May lithium primaries be used in the 60CSx? If so, what menu option should I choose? If not, will there be a firmware update adding this support? Also, what type of lithium ion batteries may be used in the unit? My understand if the AA sized lithium ion batteries (14500) is they are 3.6 volt. Can this really be used? If so, this would be nice. If this is the case, will the unit do battery protection, or must protected batteries be used? Thanks! -john


They responded:
Quote:
After reviewing the properties of Lithium batteries and having tested their use in the GPSMAP 60Cx/CSx, our engineers have determined that attempts to alter/update the firmware will not eliminate shutdowns due higher voltages measured on new Lithium batteries. Use of Alkaline and NiMH batteries is the recommended and best solution.


It has a option maked "Lithium Ion" in the menu for cryin' out loud. Can't they at least address what that means?!

In any case, I'm getting the idea that it is unlikely that we will see lithium battery support in the 60CSx. :-(

-john

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#101282 - 08/01/07 01:37 PM Re: Rebate Available on 60 Series [Re: JohnN]
JCWohlschlag Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/26/06
Posts: 724
Loc: Sterling, Virginia, United Sta...
Originally Posted By: JohnN
It has a option maked "Lithium Ion" in the menu for cryin' out loud. Can't they at least address what that means?!

Lithium-Ion batteries are manufacturer-made rechargeable battery packs. I didn't even see a rechargeable battery pack for that GPS unit, so maybe they planned to make one but scrapped the idea. The GPSMAP 76 series does not have the Lithium-Ion option in its menu.

Quote:
In any case, I'm getting the idea that it is unlikely that we will see lithium battery support in the 60CSx. :-(

On page 91 of the GPSMAP 60CSx Owner's Manual, there exists this little tidbit:
Quote:
Battery Life: Up to 18 hours (typical use)*

* Alkaline batteries lose a significant amount of their capacity as the temperature decreases. Use Lithium batteries when operating the GPSMAP 60CSx in below-freezing conditions. Extensive use of screen backlighting, electronic compass, and audible tones significantly reduce battery life.
_________________________
“Hiking is just walking where it’s okay to pee. Sometimes old people hike by mistake.” — Demitri Martin

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#101611 - 08/04/07 09:51 PM Re: Rebate Available on 60 Series [Re: JCWohlschlag]
jewski Offline
stranger

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 4
The new Garmin eTrex "H" series units use the relatively new MediaTek (MTK) GPS chip instead of the SiRFIII chip in the GPSMap 76/60CS(x) units.

From the comparisons I've read (I don't have either chips), the MTK looks good:
+ Slightly better under under heavy coverage and quicker acquisition than the SiRFIII.
+ Considerably better tracking accuracy than the SiRFIII.
+ Considerably lower power consumption than the SiRFIII.
+ More "stable" stationary signal (doesn't jump around) when you're not moving (though Garmin seems to filter some of this out for its normal display).
- Takes longer to "realize" you're moving (probably due to heavy filtering for that "stable" stationary signal).
- Tends to slightly cut the corner on 90 degree turns (bigger problem on the early bluetooth MTK GPS receivers).

The SiRFIII is still great and was quite a leap forward, but the MTK unit looks even better. A Vista HCx is definitely on top of my short list for receivers to pick up in the near future (Despite the CS(x) rebate).

Also, I don't know what kind of "DC-DC converter" is in that Vector unit, but I would suspect it is a LM317-esque linear regulator. While they have their use, they are at best 40% efficient in converting power (without the use of transistors).

Efficiency is probably even lower when you're trying to convert to a voltage much lower than the input at a low current (I'd estimate maybe as low as 25%).

If you're handy with circuits or know someone who is, there are some very efficient switching regulators (70~90%). Texas Instruments even makes some as efficient as (up to) 96% (needs a pretty heavy load to get that high, though): http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/ptn78060w.html

Some capacitors, resistors, a multi-pole rotary switch, connectors, a project box and you'd have a great efficient converter. I have a smaller TI converter in a cigarette lighter power plug like the Vector that I use for a USB-based power port. Works great.

Might be something to look into to get all the power you can out of those solar panels.

I forgot I signed up to this forum long ago.

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#101633 - 08/05/07 12:27 AM Re: Rebate Available on 60 Series [Re: jewski]
falcon5000 Offline
Addict

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 662
I'm still playing with the capabilities of the one I just bought (Garmin eTrex Vista HCx)


1. I updated my firmware on it and it gives you the options of Lithium,NIMH or alkaline batteries. I will start running the Sanyo Eneloop ( http://www.thomas-distributing.com/sanyo-eneloop-batteries-aaa.php ) batteries

2. I had bought 4- 2 gig micro sd cards from Comp USA that was on sell cheap and loaded one with the entire US street level maps,the second one has all of the European maps on it, and the third has almost all the topos for the us on it and the fourth one is blank but I'll probably put the remaining topos on it. I had took out several areas of topos that I would probably never goto in my life to get it to fit on one card but since I have another card, I will probably load them all now.

3. I've been trying to get it not to pick up satellites and I only found 1 place so far and that's in a concrete bunker at work that's a story underground. So it picks up signal extremely good.

4. The only negative I found with it besides not being able to store all the maps on 1 Micro sd card was that when you power up the unit, sometimes the WAAS reiver is disabled in the setup menu (only on power up) and that is one fix Garmin said they were going to patch,(talked with them on the phone,known issue from many complaints) but it has been transparent to me because it always powers up and locks so fast, the only way I know is checking it and turning it on.

5. It has been really awesome with routes so far,great tracking and loud alerts before the turn and at the turn with big arrow displays.

So far I've been impressed with it and I'm still in testing mode. Oh yea and I used a whiteout pen to identify the SD cards and I'll look into your power supply circuit.
Thanks
_________________________
Failure is not an option!
USMC Jungle Environmental Survival Training PI 1985

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#101660 - 08/05/07 02:34 AM Re: Rebate Available on 60 Series [Re: falcon5000]
JohnN Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 966
Loc: Seattle, WA

Does it say "lithium", or "lithium ion"?

Thanks,

-john

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#101697 - 08/05/07 06:59 PM Re: Rebate Available on 60 Series [Re: JohnN]
jewski Offline
stranger

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 4
Originally Posted By: JohnN

Does it say "lithium", or "lithium ion"?

Thanks,

-john

According to Garmin, the new firmware replaced "Lithium Ion" with "Lithium": http://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=3709

Which makes sense. I think the "Lithium Ion" was either a long-term typo or some feature that was never rolled into many Garmin units.

If some have trouble running on full 1.7V L91 lithium primary batteries, there's no way a 7.2V LiOn battery pack is going to work, as there there doesn't seem to be any kind of "wide input" regulator to allow input voltage to vary much.

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#101716 - 08/06/07 12:16 AM Re: Rebate Available on 60 Series [Re: falcon5000]
Comanche7 Offline
Addict

Registered: 07/04/02
Posts: 436
Loc: Florida
Will it use the 4gB SD Cards? Just curious as some items won't.
Thanks. Comanche7

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#101725 - 08/06/07 02:20 AM Re: Rebate Available on 60 Series [Re: Comanche7]
falcon5000 Offline
Addict

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 662
JohnN, jewski is right, it now says Lithium with the new firmware I installed plus it did fix my WAAS problem of not coming on when first powering up. I noticed also that I use it as a back up flashlight for close range because the screen is so bright. (Set at full brightness of coarse I haven't tried Lithium batteries in it, I just switched to the eneloop batteries because of all the positive feedback of these batteries in GPS units. It allows you to store batteries up to a year with insignificant power drain plus longer run times.

Comanche7, I'm not aware of any 4 gig micro SD cards out yet, but the downside of this is Garmin limits how many maps you can store on the card, so even if you have room for all the topos on a 4 gig, the software won't let you do it. This is my biggest and now the only complaint I have far with this unit. You can get the 2 gig micro SD cards at Newegg not to bad, I bought one and the next day compusa had them on sell for $30, so I bought 3 more.

The whole intent of the unit is to give me total navigation world wide with street and topo capability. It needs to have the options of Solar or battery powered allowing me to navigate faster in unfamiliar areas and acquire water from lakes or whatever. Shows me where gas stations and food places are (in natural disasters restaurants and gas stations abandon their business and in a life threating condition (ex. Katrina), I know sometimes you can get food as long as it hasn't spoiled or gas from tanks that don't have generators to power there pumps, etc..
With the topos it shows me all the trails I need to navigate to a road or lake, etc..

So it has far more pluses than minuses so far, I'm just trying to find a real small FOB to put the extra Micro sd cards in so it will be waterproof and attached to the GPS so I don't lose them.
_________________________
Failure is not an option!
USMC Jungle Environmental Survival Training PI 1985

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#101756 - 08/06/07 01:56 PM Re: Rebate Available on 60 Series [Re: jewski]
Brangdon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/12/04
Posts: 1204
Loc: Nottingham, UK
Originally Posted By: jewski
If some have trouble running on full 1.7V L91 lithium primary batteries, there's no way a 7.2V LiOn battery pack is going to work, as there there doesn't seem to be any kind of "wide input" regulator to allow input voltage to vary much.
A single Lithium Ion cell would be around 3.6V - you need two of them to get 7.2V. So it's not inconceivable that the units could use one.

In fact, for a long time I wished they did. A big Li-Ion cell that replaced two AA cells would have a lot of capacity, and would be rechargeable without the self-discharge problems of conventional NiMH. Also, there's no such solution.

Now Eneloops are available it doesn't matter so much.
_________________________
Quality is addictive.

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