Gun safe?

Can anyone recommend a good handgun safe?
Requirements:
-Hold 1 handgun
-Keep others out
-Let me in quickly (easy access in case of emergency)
-Multiple mounting options (the more concealable the better)

I prefer non-electronic.

http://www.vlineind.com/html/compact.html
http://www.titangunvault.com/

There are probably a hundred different options depending your requirements of security vs. convenience. By "others" are you talking about little children, nosy family members, amateur thieves, etc?

The mechanical simplex locks on the above safes are very convenient, but their weakness is you can run through every possible combination in about 15 minutes, maybe less. So it might be secure against little kids, but if you have curious teenagers around I'd be worried.

These are also pretty popular

http://www.gunvault.com/

But again it's just a deterrent, a few simple hand tools can defeat it pretty easily. No matter what kind of safe you get, it has to be bolted down otherwise someone will just walk off with it.

I have this wall safe with electronic lock, I believe they also make a smaller size

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Mesa-Safe-Co.-Electronic-Wall-Safe-20-H-with-Two-Shelves/11402214

It's not real secure, but a great value for the price. As you said, the more concealable the better. Security through obscurity, if someone can't find it, they won't be trying to open it. It does require more work to install but the compromise between security vs. accessibility is perfect for me.

Make sure you can open it on the first try in the dark.

Any safe fitting the requirements in the original post is going to have numerous weaknesses, but you're exaggerating the weakness of the safes in the links I posted. According to my calculations, your 15-minute estimate is off. You might be able to go through every combination if you are well-organized and make zero mistakes throughout all 1000+ combinations. I have simplex locks, and I often make mistakes even though I know each combination backward and forward. One mistaken press or a press that's not hard enough means the lock won't open. I don't realize I made a mistake until the lock won't open. A pry bar would be easier.

I prefer not to use an electronic lock because I've had more than one fail on me. I've had better luck with purely mechanical locks.

I just use an electronic safe. Keep in mind that when you set the combinations with the 4 buttons on the front, one possibility is to hold two (or more) buttons down at the same time. This increases the number of combinations considerably - it's really not that easy for teenagers to get the thing open.

You need to be able to access your gun quickly in an emergency.
That's a tradeoff to consider.

other Pete

I was being conservative on the 15 minute time frame, the common estimate is about 10 minutes. Keep in mind that this is the amount of time to try EVERY possible combination, including all the ones with 2 or more simultaneous numbers. What are the chances someone will need to go through all of them before they happen across the right one? It's very easy to go through a lot of combinations very quickly, especially if you have a list in front of you.

http://www.tech-faq.com/how-to-open-a-simplex-lock.html

This doesn't mean they are bad locks, you just have to know the inherent limitations of your choice. Simplex locks are great for access control, not so much for security. You'll notice you will only see them used on small lock boxes, there's a reason manufacturers don't use them on larger safes.

As I stated, it would be fine if you needed to keep small children out of your safe, but I personally would not trust one where a bored/curious teenager had access to it, because they will get into it. It boils down to who you're trying to keep out. You don't want to give yourself a false sense of security, that's almost as dangerous as having none.

I prefer mechanical dial locks for their durability, but for frequent use an electronic lock is a lot more convenient.

None of the safes in this thread are good for security. A bored/curious teenager who is testing the safe has made a decision to break the law. That person has morals that won't stop him from using a crowbar to get in. None of the safes here are suitable for stopping such a person.

Anyway, please explain how you're getting 15 minutes to go through all combinations on the safes I posted? The second safe I posted has 2,200 combinations. If you average 4 seconds per try, that's 146 minutes to go through all combinations. As I said above, it's easy to make a mistake, and you don't know if you made a mistake until the safe doesn't open. You'll very likely make a mistake on the correct code and won't know until you've gone through all combinations (146 minutes), and then you'd have to start over.

I know Simplex locks have limitations, but let's at least not pull numbers out of mid-air.

as others have commented there is a trade off between security and quick access... I have a gun safe with a typical Sergeant-Greenleaf dial lock that house my competition firearms.... I also have a Treadlock security chest of lighter gauge steel with a Medeco key lock that houses several charged handguns... all of my keys, including the security chest key is on the same ring, so all I would have to do is leave the key in the lock to have access to the loaded pistols when I retire for the night... I would not get very far if I tried to walk away with the key still in the lock

True, none of these safes are good for true security, but some are better than others for certain application. That's is why the first question I asked the OP is who/what was trying to secure against. If the OP has teenage kids in the house, are they going have access to the safe? What if they bring friends over? Don't underestimate the curiosity and ability of teenagers. Maybe he has nosy roommates? It's not always a thief with a crowbar that you're trying to defend against.

As for the 15 minutes, it's well established how long it takes to go through the combinations, these are not made up numbers. I said 15 because that's how long it would take me because of my fat fingers, 10 minutes is what other people can do with practice. There's no reason for me to embellish these numbers when it's very easy to verify. Your estimate of 4 seconds per combination is very conservative, even at a normal relaxed pace 1-2 second per combination is common. If you look at where simplex lock mechanisms are used, it's usually in a high traffic, low security application. At my work there are simplex locks on many of the doors, hundreds of people pass through them multiple times everyday, so you're looking at thousands of openings every day. It does not take 4 seconds to punch in the combination, and if people are in a hurry the lock barely slows them down. And these locks are designed to be relatively easy to use, a mistaken number is easily noticed by even a new user.

(warning, boring technical details below)
The second safe you posted is the exact same simplex lock mechanism as the first one. So yes, that first safe technically also has 2200 combinations also (2162 to be exact). This was briefly mentioned in the link above how it works and why it's not used. I've tried it using it before, and I tend to agree that it's really not worth the hassle. I bet the simplex lock you have now also has that capability, but it wasn't mentioned in the manual. So in practical use you're looking at about 1000 combinations. Now if you consider the fact that most people are not going to use just 1 or 2 numbers, you can eliminate quite a few off the bat. Chances are they won't use 3 simultaneous button pushes either, so that reduces the practical number of combinations even more. I'm even willing to guess that most people will use 4 numbers, either individually or with 2 simultaneous button pushes, so now there is a much smaller number of probable combinations to start with (how close am I to guessing your combination?). Now you see why these types of locks are only used in small lock boxes, never on a decent sized safe. Compare that to a cheap combination dial lock which has 64,000 possible combinations, and it takes much longer to try each one. A high quality dial safe lock will have 1,000,000 combinations, and can take up to half a minute to dial each one.

I'm not trying to convince you or the OP to change your choice in handgun safes. If it works for your needs, that's great. But be informed and don't get a false sense of security, because that will lead to disappointment. A good test would be to find a teenager, put $50 in your pistol safe and then hand him the list of possible combinations and tell him he has 15 minutes. See how long it takes him to get in. I think you'll be surprised.

Great info ducktapeguy! Thanks! Another useful document on my survival flash memory card.

We're getting off track. Discussions of safes with one million combinations is off-topic. The original poster has a requirement of quick access. A safe that meets the original requirements is not going to be high security. However, if someone can provide a link to such a safe, then please do.

If you don't want to go electric, then a Simplex lock is the way to go. I'll trade a little security for more reliability of Simplex locks. Inexpensive electronic locks just don't meet my standard for reliability.

If you still want to go electric, the Gunvault may meet the original criteria. However, I have experienced failures with this safe and have read numerous stories of Gunvaults failing (Google "Gunvault failure"). Do you want a safe that won't open if you fail to maintain it perfectly? Do you want a fun gadget that's less reliable than a Simplex? If yes and yes, then the Gunvault will be fine.

The wall safe linked above appears to be for mounting permanently in a wall and has limited mounting capabilities. I wouldn't want to go that direction for a small, quick access safe that I'll want to move around.

The topic was to recommend a handgun safe for the OP. Without knowing his specific needs, it's not possible to say whether or not it meets his requirements. And quick access does not necessarily exclude the possibility of millions of combinations.



If that suits your needs, that's fine. However, I did not see non-electronic lock as one of the original criteria. I did not even see key-less as a requirement. Other people may have different needs and may not want to make the same trade offs. Also, I did not see inexpensive as one of the criteria, but it's probably a reasonable assumption. The topic of mechanical vs. electronic reliability is another interesting debate, but I won't get into it here.



Yes, the gun vaults have had some reliability issues, I don't disagree. But I would not go as far to say the locks are no more secure than a Simplex, it depends on what you're definition of secure is I guess. Each is suited for a different purpose.



Again, nowhere did I see a requirement to move the safe around. The OP mentioned wanting something concealable, and a wall safe could fit that criteria. If he were to ask for a small, inexpensive, non-electronic safe that can be moved around to keep the gun away from his kids, then I probably would have recommended the same two handgun safes that you posted.

And in response to your original post before you edited. All I've done was provide information that is readily available online and based on personal experience. You can choose to believe it or not, it has no effect on me. As far as I'm concerned there's no reason to clutter up this thread even more, so there's no need to discuss it further.

This looked spammy to me and the poster didn't respond to a PM, so into the bin it goes.


chaosmagnet

I have Vline gear and like it. No fiddly electronics, no beeps. Very clean construction.

I have the same safe as the V-Line, although mine is labeled "Canon". Bought it a good 20 years or more ago.

Be sure an change the default combination on it - they all come with the same combination from the factory (at least they did, 20 years ago). And this default combination is the same default combination you find on many pushbutton locks (I've found it on door locks too). It's like the different lock manufacturers got together and came up with a "standard combo" that would be as unsecure out of the box as possible. However, once you set the combo to something else of your choosing, these are good little gun safes to keep kids out. Wouldn't stop an adult burglar for more than a few seconds though, even if bolted down.

I have a Vline box and a generic simplex box (which is better than my Vline).

Last night, I had an intruder scare at my house. While half asleep, I was able to slip out of bed and open my generic simplex box in a total time of less than 5 seconds I'd say. This is a simplex box I don't use often. It just sits under my bed out of sight, out of mind. I love how boringly reliable a simplex box is.

By the way, it wasn't an intruder. It was a family member who decided to use a door that had never been used before at 2 am. The person was also trying to get upstairs as quickly as possible for whatever reason. I was well-prepared before the person got upstairs. So, it was a good simulation. No shots were fired.

Good job for identifying your target before bad things happened, ireckon!

Just remember that these boxes are for keeping small children from getting their hands on a firearm. A keyed deadbolt on a closet door will do just as well for that purpose, better actually. But if you want your firearms close at hand, these boxes are more convenient to set on your bed's headboard than a closet would be.

But they are not to secure your firearms from theft. They wouldn't stop anybody there.

The electronic ones do not provide any more security. They provide a more expensive, more complex, and more failure prone interface to the same internal cheap locks as the basic non-electronic models. But they are advertised as "easier and faster to use". You decide on that claim...

The only way that combination locks are improved by making them digital is "intruder lockout" where after "x" number of incorrect entries the system is locked for "y" time. I'm not impressed with consumer-grade biometrics. Simplex and Sargent & Greenleaf are the way to go.

I need to get one myself.
I don't care if it takes 15 mins to open.
I support the idea that I need to open it on the FIRST try in the dark.

what safe meets those requirements, and still provides SOME security?

Pete

Have you considered a safe with an illuminated keypad? Thats what our safe on our sleep level has. Plus we have the types that open with our finger prints for both hand guns and long guns. Throughout the main level we have various items such as clock, books and a secret compartment in the mantel in case of home invasions. The big cabella safes are in the basement and would take longer to access. We used to have handguns spaced about but with the babys arrival we changed all that. Plus the dog would slow them down long enough for us to retrieve a weapon, and make a sandwich and check our messages lol.

My bedside pistol safe has a Simplex lock. I can open it by touch on the first try, every time.

The main question is, do you prefer electronic locks or purely mechanical locks?

If you prefer mechanical, then the Vline Brute meets those requirements for a handgun. You can also get the job done with a normal Vline box, or an Amsec box, etc.