Cities Running Out of Water

Posted by: paramedicpete

Cities Running Out of Water - 11/02/10 04:45 PM

If the predictions in this story prove to be accurate, (short of moving) how does one prepare for moderate and long-term water shortages?


10 US Cities Running Out of Water

Pete
Posted by: clearwater

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/02/10 06:23 PM

Put in your own rain barrel, figure ways to use grey water,
put in a well and make sure you have the water rights to it,
get on the planning commission of your city and make sure they
have water rights and the ability to move and treat the water.

Many places have over allocated water rights IE water is
owned based on the highest water available in 100 years
(the 100 year event). Many large cities are buying up rural
water rights quietly. This will be a surprise to a lot of
rural folks when they find out the water they are pumping from
their well belongs to someone else or at least have to go to
court to prove it belongs to them.
Posted by: LED

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/02/10 06:45 PM

Water scarcity has always been the reality here but you'd never know it. Rainwater catchment with underground/covered storage tanks and a well if possible. With an average rainfall of 15 inches a year, (4.42 in. was lowest on record) getting by on stored water would be extremely difficult if not impossible. Without the Sierra snowpack and the Colorado, life around here would be very different.
Posted by: paramedicpete

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/02/10 06:55 PM

Do you know if LA acquires any water through the use of desalinization plants? If not, why not?


Pete
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/02/10 09:34 PM

I don't believe LA uses desalinization. In a prolonged drought during the late 1980's, Santa Barbara developed plans for such a plant, but the rains came before construction began. I believe the project is still on hold..

Desal is pretty darn expensive.
Posted by: MDinana

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/02/10 10:01 PM

Originally Posted By: paramedicpete
Do you know if LA acquires any water through the use of desalinization plants? If not, why not?


Pete

I don't think so, yet... I was told (lord knows where) that it actually takes more fresh water in the treatment than fresh water gained. Something like that, the bottom line being, you lose fresh water.

But, I think they're taking a look at it, which leads me to think A) I was wrong, or B) new developments have occured.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE54D6M420090514

Either way, there's lots of evidence that LA is straining things. The water level in the central valley is down dozens of feet, the Salton Sea is a wreck, even driving past some of the recreation areas built around lakes show dozens of feet drop in their water level markings. A few years ago there was some talk about running piping from the Great Lakes out towards the west coast. Last I heard that idea got firmly rejected.
Posted by: Richlacal

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/02/10 10:02 PM

Catalina Island,Exclusively uses Desalination for their freshwater!
Posted by: Art_in_FL

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/02/10 10:51 PM

Desalination, typically reverse osmosis now, used to be a condenser plant, is still very expensive in terms of dollars per gallon.

As usual conservation is far more cost efficient than manufacturing your own fresh water. Flushing toilets, washing the manure, accounts for roughly 40% of the domestic fresh water used. Car washing and golf courses use a good percentage. Much of the fresh water use not actually used. As a result of the neglect of infrastructure many cities waste almost half of the water through leaking supply pipes. Many of which were installed in the 50s and have just been patched enough to maintain pressure.

Like it or not the majority correction/ cure is through community/ government action and long term.

In terms of what an individual person/ homeowner can do would be limited to private supplies - surface water, rain collection or wells if legal - water storage, conservation of what you may store, and what little reuse can be made of 'Gray' water.

Note that gray water, typically shower and sink water, cannot be stored long as it still contains nutrients that turn it brown and corrosive in a very short time. Essentially the only practical use is to water lawns or landscaping. Even use in a toilet is difficult because it can damage and/or clog flush valves and switching between gray and fresh water can be very problematic.

Storing water is likely to be practical mostly in terms of reserves for use if utilities go down. The numbers of gallons needed long term is so high that complete independence would require a large investment in cisterns/storage and radical reductions in use. Storing enough to get by on minimal use levels is only practical for a few days if you don't wish to invest in large tanks and cisterns.
Posted by: ironraven

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/02/10 11:00 PM

Conserve, store and keep your mouth shut, like any other kind of cache. But that only works for the short term.

Long term, there is no answer other than than there are too many people. I remember reading that part of the Colorado is diverted and pumped across the mountains for LA. Not sure if it is true, I've never gone looking because I'm afraid that it is, and in that case, I think I'll be physically ill.
Posted by: Desperado

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/02/10 11:57 PM

Originally Posted By: ironraven
Conserve, store and keep your mouth shut, like any other kind of cache. But that only works for the short term.

Long term, there is no answer other than than there are too many people. I remember reading that part of the Colorado is diverted and pumped across the mountains for LA. Not sure if it is true, I've never gone looking because I'm afraid that it is, and in that case, I think I'll be physically ill.



Uh, ahem...... Yeah, you might want to stay east of the Rockies to prevent nausea.
Posted by: Richlacal

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/03/10 01:21 AM

Another part of The Colorado River is Diverted into Lake Mead,Nevada of which feeds All of Las Vegas,Clark county & Nye county,Nevada,Another part is Diverted to Arizona,The Whole State of Arizona,in fact!Ironraven,You done Barfin',Yet?lol!Remember,Our Great Leader of This site,Makes his Home in The Beautiful State of Arizona!
Posted by: Susan

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/03/10 02:39 AM

620 gallons of water fall on the roof of a building that has a 1000 sf footprint when one inch of rain falls. (0.62 gallons per sqft)

If you have a 2000 sf home and a 500 sf garage, that totals 2500 sf and can produce 1,550 gallons of water. If you get 15" of rain per year, that's 23,250 gallons per year, almost 16 gallons of water per person per day for a family of four. Seattle averages 37" of rain a year, 57,350 gallons.

An above-ground swimming pool with a 15' diameter (4' deep) holds about 4,646 gallons. An oval in-ground pool 18x33' = 12,267 gallons. Keep in mind that you don't need a tank that holds your entire annual water needs, as the rain falls periodically, and you're using it regularly, so you mainly need to supply your family through the longest usual dry spell of the year.

Most people let it rain well for about 15 minutes before they start collecting, to clean off the roof. Rainwater is 20 times cleaner than the cleanest groundwater -- people panic that it hasn't been purifed, but they'll drink water from their well without testing it for anything but a reasonable fecal coliform count (if that).

A family of four with a 2-gallon toilet tank will flush away almost 12,000 gallons of fresh drinking-quality water per year, almost half the total you could collect in SoCal with 2500 sf of roof. If that's not waste, nothing is. If you haven't already, read Joseph Jenkin's detailed free online guide The Humanure Handbook

There are two books by Art Ludwig, one for rainwater collection and one for intelligent greywater use that everyone should read:

Water Storage: Tanks, Cisterns, Aquifers, and Ponds For Domestic Supply, Fire and Emergency Use (includes directions on how to make ferrocement water tanks).

The New Create an Oasis with Greywater: Choosing, Building and Using Greywater Systems — Includes Branched Drains

He has other books on his site: http://oasisdesign.net/

Sue
Posted by: Richlacal

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/03/10 03:39 AM

Wherever you have Acid rain,Dirty water will be coming from the sky,So one would not be collecting in those locations!I think it was El Nino that,Actually gave So.Cal, The Statistical 14" of rain,Other than that,It rained last Thursday night into Friday,1st Real Rain,I've seen in Months!It would take a Solid Week of Rain,to Clean the Roofs off,Here in The Dirty Basin,Probably longer for The Filthy&Smoggy San Fernando Valley!Anyone who's lived here Know's,It's Very Rare to have,Even a Solid day of Rain!Without an Infrastructure in Semi-Decent condition,It's not too practical,for everyone to collect water! But it Certainly is a Great idea! I say No Running water for Jail/Prisons,That would save trillions of gallons,Alone!
Posted by: adam2

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/03/10 08:32 AM

As posted above, even in arid locations, many thousands of gallons may be collected from rain.
If renewing or repairing roofs, avoid materials that taint the water.
Devices are available that divert the first XX gallons of rooffall to waste (or an oil drum etc.) and then pass the remainder to a large tank. This results in much cleaner water since the initial flow is liable to contain dirt, leaves, dead insects, and bird droppings.

If the collected water is acidic due to acid rain, this may be neutralised by placeing lumps of chalk or limestone in the tank, or by use of a cement tank.

If a flush toilet is used normally, it would be prudent to be prepared with a composting toilet or other water free system, for emergency.
Posted by: TeacherRO

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/03/10 02:09 PM

Move.
Posted by: CANOEDOGS

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/03/10 02:31 PM

teacher is right..in the long run people will have to move back to the rust belt states.
Posted by: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/03/10 02:32 PM

Quote:
Move.


There is evidence to suggest this is what the Mayans did, well the ones that survived did. wink

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_Maya_collapse

I guess the time constant for any civilisation is based on the rate of unsustainability. Technological advances may delay the abandonment of certain overpopulated areas somewhat but you if you cannot square the circle then disaster is sure to arise, it just takes time.

The abandonment of a city like Los Angeles, would be just as quick as say New Orleans was if the taps ran dry. i.e. about a week.

Posted by: desolation

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/03/10 04:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Susan

If you have a 2000 sf home and a 500 sf garage, that totals 2500 sf and can produce 1,550 gallons of water. If you get 15" of rain per year, that's 23,250 gallons per year, almost 16 gallons of water per person per day for a family of four. Seattle averages 37" of rain a year, 57,350 gallons.


Rainwater collection is a wonderful idea (seriously). If you have space. And money. A ~22,000 gallon galvanized tank will run you $18,000 to $20,000 just for the tank (no foundation or install). It'll be about 19 feet in diameter and around 12 feet tall. A ~55,000 gallon galvanized tank will run you $34,000 just for the tank. It'll take up 24 feet diameter and be around 15 feet tall. Only you'd need a much rounder and lower tanks to get your roof water into it. And a pump to get water pressure out of it. And some form of sand filter at a minimum for filtration. And a big gun to keep your neighbors away from that big silver tank full of cool water.

Long term: move is the option with highest survivability. Climate change will generally make those cities with poor water availability worse off.
Posted by: desolation

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/03/10 04:36 PM

Originally Posted By: paramedicpete
Do you know if LA acquires any water through the use of desalinization plants? If not, why not?


Pete


It's expensive. But it's slowly becoming more economical as water importation costs are rising.

Ranges for capital costs for reverse osmosis are $700 to $900 per cubic meter to $1,300 to $2,200 per cubic meter. Ranges in reported O&M costs for reverse osmosis are from $0.45 to $0.92 per cubic meter. 60 percent of the O&M costs are energy costs. 3 to 3.5 kWh per cubic meet of water is used at a production rate of approximately 40 percent of the salty water being turned to fresh water. Somebody smarter than me can figure out how much it would cost to build a facility to treat enough water for LA. grin
Posted by: Art_in_FL

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/03/10 10:31 PM

There are some vary sound reasons why towns and cities sprouted up around natural sources of fresh water. LA and Las Vegas were both quite small communities until fresh water was directed toward them through massive engineering projects. If/when those projects stop working water will become a massive, critical, lethal issue.

It also has to be noted that as the world climate warms, and climate bands shift, the Midwest and West are becoming dryer. Places that enjoyed adequate rainfalls are seeing less total rain. What rain they are getting is coming as torrential rains that runs off instead of soaking in. With drought being followed by flood as the massive rainfall overload the waterways.
Posted by: Susan

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/04/10 05:14 AM

"The abandonment of a city like Los Angeles, would be just as quick as say New Orleans was if the taps ran dry. i.e. about a week."

For Las Vegas and Phoenix, probably half that.

The crux of the problem is our high water usage. The U.S. national average of water usage is 180-200 gallons per person per day. Even at the lower estimate, for a family of four, that is over 250,000 gallons per year, or 20,000+ gallons per month.

Rainy Seattle gets about 36" of rain per year; if that arrived evenly at 3" per month (it doesn't), that's still only 1860 gallons for a 1000sf house, 3720 for a 2000sf house, and 4650 gallons for a 2000sf house with a 500sf garage, with a grand total annually of 55,800 gallons per year. That provides 4650 gallons per month, far short of the average use, and would provide a maximum of 38 gallons per person per day, far short of that 180 gallons.

During the recent election, one of the arguments against our state government was that "it doesn't have an income problem, it has a spending problem". With water, we have a usage problem.

Just for fun, I did a little basic math for a city in SoCal, picked at random, Canoga Park. It's average rainfall is 16.83"/year, mostly falling in 5 continuous months (Nov-Mar), the other 7 months are almost dry.

If you had four people living in a 1000sf house with a 500sf garage, you might be able to collect 15,000 gallons of water.
At the usual water usage of 180 gallons per person per day, that 15,000 gallons would last about a full 20 days.

If you rationed it to 50 gallons per day (12x4)*, it would last about 300 days. If you could ration it to about 10 gals per day per person, you might be able to squeak through a good year. Otherwise, you would have to create enough additional collection area to make up the 3,250-gallon shortfall. And that's a decent year, and that's paring it awfully close to disaster.

*****
According to Population Reports the four most basic water needs are for drinking, sanitation, bathing and cooking. Worldwide, the estimated average need is 12 gallons per person per day.

Sue
Posted by: LED

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/04/10 06:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Susan

If you rationed it to 50 gallons per day (12x4)*, it would last about 300 days. If you could ration it to about 10 gals per day per person, you might be able to squeak through a good year. Otherwise, you would have to create enough additional collection area to make up the 3,250-gallon shortfall. And that's a decent year, and that's paring it awfully close to disaster.


Not to mention you'd need a foolproof storage system to avoid contamination, evaporation, etc. And what about growing food or raising animals? Cause any area thats devoid of water is also devoid of economic investment and commerce. Which means you'd have to be pretty self sustaining. Water = economic development.
Posted by: Eugene

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/05/10 09:46 PM

Your water calculations for collecting from a house are way high. Your average house closer to town is not a single floor ranch so that 1500-2500 sq ft is divided in half for two stories or a third if the city/county or realtor counts the basement as living space. Then of course use Pythagorean theorem to adjust for the angle of the roof but its your still going to get way less water
Posted by: dweste

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/06/10 11:14 AM

Originally Posted By: paramedicpete
If the predictions in this story prove to be accurate, (short of moving) how does one prepare for moderate and long-term water shortages?


Move.

Invest in water-from-air technology. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_water_generator

Support water conservation and recycling.

Support family planning.

Support politicians who support the above.
Posted by: Susan

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/08/10 02:03 AM

"Your water calculations for collecting from a house are way high."

"And what about growing food or raising animals? Cause any area thats devoid of water is also devoid of economic investment and commerce. Which means you'd have to be pretty self sustaining."

EXACTLY! Even my good-case scenario wasn't enough, was it?

There are places in the world where they would fight over the 2-5 gallons of clean drinking water we use to flush half a cup of urine.

Back when I lived in SoCal, I wondered if ever there was an good earthquake that wiped out the transport of water from the Colorado River, how long it would take to empty the place.

Sue
Posted by: Richlacal

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/08/10 02:37 AM

How Long it would take to Empty the place?I believe you resided in The Val,Am I correct?All of the water for Burbank & Anything West of there in The Valley,Get's it's water from The Northern Aquaduct,of Which is fed Originally from,Owens Lake,Up near Mammoth in The High Sierra's,The LA Basin get's it's water from The Colorado river,Via The LA Aquaduct,San Bernardino,Riverside,Orange Counties get their water from a similar Aquaduct Branched off from The LA one.All of The Aquaduct's Travel along,thru,or aside a Fault or Many Faults/Zones,It Probably wouldn't take much,as long as Most of the Fault Zones, became active All at the same time! I'm All for it,We have Too Many Derilict Visitors,That really don't give a rats keester for The Environment in General!
Posted by: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/08/10 01:29 PM

If the Glen Canyon Dam was to somehow fail i.e. in a earthquake or terrorist attack, then a vast area of the Southwestern United States of America would basically become uninhabitable for about 2o years.

The economic and financial problems it would create would also bankrupt all the western financial institutions i.e. wall street due their exposure to the collapse of property prices in the south western USA where a huge proportion of the 2000-2008 property speculative bubble was generated.



Posted by: dweste

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/09/10 12:42 AM

As Mark Twain allegedly said about the west, "Whiskey's for drinking, water's for fighting."
Posted by: Arney

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/10/10 06:03 PM

Originally Posted By: hikermor
In a prolonged drought during the late 1980's, Santa Barbara developed plans for such a plant, but the rains came before construction began. I believe the project is still on hold.

The Santa Barbara desalination plant was actually finished. See here . However, it is kept on stand-by status until there is some emergency or another severe drought. As has been mentioned, it is very expensive to operate and has potential environmental impacts, however, this facility is designed to operate on a long-term basis, if needed. Unlike the LA/Orange County or San Diego metro areas, Santa Barabara doesn't have access to major sources of imported water like from Northern Cal or the Colorado.

Orange County started operating a water reclamation plant a few years ago. Treated waste water is highly processed (further filtration, UV, ozonation, etc.) and then pumped underground to recharge the aquifer. Being so highly processed, I would drink that water, but politically, I don't think most folks would appreciate the water they flush down their toilets making a direct loop back to their kitchen faucets, so the water just goes back to the aquifer.

My city here in Orange County uses recycled water for all municipal landscape irrigation. Our city relies on 100% imported water. My neighbor works for the water utility and he says that local backup supply for our city would last a month if we stopped all irrigation use, so that's fairly reassuring. There are interconnections and agreements with neighboring water districts that have ground water supplies, so even if an earthquake cut us off from the Colorado River or Northern Cal, we'd still be able to limp along for some time.
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/10/10 09:52 PM

Thanks, I had no idea the plant had actually been finished. It just seemed to drop off the radar once the rains resumed....
Posted by: Famdoc

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/11/10 12:30 AM

During a visit to Bermuda some 20 years ago I recall being told that all houses (new construction?) had concrete water tanks in their basement which stored the rainwater collected by the also mandated terraced concrete roofs. The roofs were hurricane resistant as well; and the material in both "sweetened" any acid in the rain. The idea was make each home more or less water self-sufficient. Others who have been or live there might comment, or supply links to pictures/designs
Posted by: Art_in_FL

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/11/10 12:38 AM

RO plants are expensive to build, expensive to run, and subject to both regular, and unplanned, maintenance and overhaul. If the flush and de-mineralization cycles are not kept up, or if the intake sucks up oil, the membranes can be destroyed long before their expected life-cycle.

South Florida has played with RO plants. They even built a few small ones as proof-of-concept. The military has used small ones for years.

Every time water gets to be a major issue in south Florida two plans pop up. RO plants, and a pipeline to shift the "excess" fresh water from central and north Florida down south. Costs (Big $) and political pressures (What do you mean Miami has the right to drain central Florida lakes to keep their golf courses around Miami wet?) delay the issue until a hurricane comes along and kicks the can down the road a few years. Wash, rinse, repeat.

An interesting shift can sometimes to be seen in some people who have previously loudly objected to legal mandates for low-flow shower heads and low water use toilets. Their interests now clearly counter their previous highly principled views they now enthusiastically support what they had condemned. Sails are trimmed and most people, yours truly excepted, are too polite to take notice publicly.
Posted by: dweste

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/11/10 10:16 AM

Forgot: water-from-atmosphere technology includes not only the electrical dehumidifier-type technology but also the passive non-electrical solar still technology.
Posted by: Art_in_FL

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/11/10 10:33 PM

The problem is that water-from-air, humidity extraction, is even less efficient energy-wise than RO.
Posted by: handle

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/15/10 04:54 PM

If it's shtf, I will leave for the reservoir, where I have a dugout and cached goods. If it becomes a "normal times" issue, I will move elsewhere, dig a well, set up a desalinizer or condenser machine, etc. The world has 2x or more too many people already, and we are doubling that every 35 years. Nature is going to come up with a pandemic that knocks our species back by 99%, and soon, too. That's the way it always happens, with all species, when they overpopulate to the extent we have done. People just INSIST on having too many kids. Now, and for the forseeable future, 2 is too many.
Posted by: thseng

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/15/10 05:39 PM

Handle, as father of seven children, when I read your post I say my family down to figure out which six we should get rid of.

Then we realize that if the world has twice as many people as it "should" have, we must all be in the half that does belong.

There was some debate as to which half you belong to, but I'd like you to know that at least I voted for you to stay. smile
Posted by: Eugene

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/16/10 12:49 AM

I think its going to be a bigger issue soon. My parents spring dries up half the year now, they had to have a well drilled and its not drinkable so they have to buy water half the year.
The small hand dug well up the mountain where I want to put our cabin has dried up as well, I don't know if I'll be able to have running water at all.
Posted by: dweste

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/16/10 05:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Art_in_FL
The problem is that water-from-air, humidity extraction, is even less efficient energy-wise than RO.


My narrow focus was a water source independent of public supply, or even access to water! You are quite right that you also need a power source to make the water-from-air technology work, and so you should also consider developing power independent of public supply .
Posted by: Art_in_FL

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/16/10 10:23 PM

Originally Posted By: dweste

My narrow focus was a water source independent of public supply, or even access to water! You are quite right that you also need a power source to make the water-from-air technology work, and so you should also consider developing power independent of public supply .


It should be possible, but not necessarily efficient in terms of return on effort, to set up a solar-drive humidity extraction system.

A bank of solar cells might be used to drive a conventional refrigeration or Peltier-cell cooling but your going to lose efficiency at every transition between energy forms. I would lean toward a solar driven absorption cooling simply because it is a well understood technology that avoids several transitions.

Absorption systems can be entirely sealed and may be designed with no moving parts. There are absorption systems that are still kicking after a century of use. What they lack in refinement they more than make up with simplicity and endurance. Picture a multi-facet plate solar collector that runs any time there is sufficient solar energy to boil ammonia out of a water solution. As small system might average several ounces an hour for perhaps eight hours a day. A quart a day sounds doable for a small footprint and without complications that might boost output.

While this doesn't sound like much it would be delivered essentially 365 days a year, better than 90 gallons a year. Any water used could be fed back into the system by using simple evaporation trays to boost output, doubling or tripling output.

The good news is that such a system/s could produce water without adjustment or input for decades. Just set it up and let it do its thing. Such a system could be a survival reserve. Something you could set up at a remote cabin and let run to make sure you always have some water. The main supply would be through well or surface water and rainwater collection.

The bad news is that even a small system is going to run several thousand dollars. Hard to figure less than thousand if you don't get into mass production, even if you built it yourself.
Posted by: dweste

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/17/10 12:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Art_in_FL
The bad news is that even a small system is going to run several thousand dollars. Hard to figure less than thousand if you don't get into mass production, even if you built it yourself.


Divided by say 50 years it doesn't seem prohibitive.

Edit: Aren't our existing refrigerators, freezers, dehumidifiers, and air conditioners already water-from-air machines? Can they do double duty and produce potable water with some cleanup or small alteration?
Posted by: Art_in_FL

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/18/10 03:53 AM

Yes, even though they are not optimized for it, and often handle the produced condensate in ways that make drinking unlikely, refrigerators and AC units can produce condensate that might be filtered, or otherwise treated, and drunk.
Posted by: handle

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/18/10 09:01 PM

uh, since you are unlikely to have power if you don't have water, how are AC or frig going to help?
Posted by: handle

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/18/10 09:03 PM

yep, that sort of attitude is EXACTLY why the world is overpopulated. Everyone considers THEIR genes to be oh so special.
Posted by: dweste

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/19/10 04:26 AM

Originally Posted By: handle
uh, since you are unlikely to have power if you don't have water, how are AC or frig going to help?


My fallible interpretation of the thread is what can you do when cities begin to run out of water, as well as when cities have run out of water.

Out of water does not necessarily mean out of power.

Just as you may want to plan to be able to generate water, you may want to plan to be able to generate power.

If you have power, it might be useful to know how to get water-from-air using your existing technology.

Posted by: handle

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/20/10 06:55 PM

of course one = the other. Without water, people will have left the area, so who will be generating the power, hmm?
Posted by: hikermor

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/20/10 07:16 PM

I suspect that when water shortage really begin to crimp places like LA, Tucson, and Las Vegas, you will see conditions developing akin to those we see in the Rust Belt cities of the northest, most notably Detroit. In this scenario, there will be a gradual decline in population, not a catastrophic, Mad Max rush for the exits.

One of the advantages of Detroit is that the area possesses abundant water. So if you are really thinking ahead.....
Posted by: Art_in_FL

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/20/10 11:54 PM

I really doubt water shortages are going to change anything in the near term. Probably not in my lifetime. LA doesn't have much natural water. But it is a population and profit center and it has both the wealth and political power to have water channeled to it. Which is a major reason it became a large megalopolis.

Las Vegas is another city that has water issues. It has essentially no natural water. Hasn't seemed to matter because the money and political power deigned that it would have plenty of water, cheap. Fact being that Las Vegas flaunts the incongruity of its existence. It is like there was a bet made that a person could build a prosperous city in the least likely place imaginable. A place with no water, not really along a well traveled route, a place where no food is grown, and there are no jobs or natural resources to exploit for jobs. Fact being that the place has absolutely nothing going for it. So they built a city. Just to prove they could.

As water gets more scarce and prices rise there will be increased pressure for conservation. There are a lot of places to save water. Especially considering that about 20%, by some calculations, of water use is wasted in leaks. Then there are lawns and golf courses. But there are people still harping about how their ten-gallon-a-flush toilet and high-flow shower head is a God-given right. That low-flow toilets and shower heads are infringements on their civil rights.

The history of money, population and politics all tell you that LA and Las Vegas will get what they need, as long as the money holds out. Massive water projects allowed both places to thrive. Does anyone doubt they can/will not do it again?
Posted by: Susan

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/22/10 08:28 AM

"Las Vegas is another city that has water issues... So they built a city. Just to prove they could."

LOVE IT!

What would be really interesting (since I'm not there) is what would happen to those two megalopolises if the water got turned off really fast, as by terrorists or an earthquake.

Sue
Posted by: Phaedrus

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/22/10 01:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Art_in_FL

The history of money, population and politics all tell you that LA and Las Vegas will get what they need, as long as the money holds out. Massive water projects allowed both places to thrive. Does anyone doubt they can/will not do it again?



I imagine they will, so long as money is enough. If/when the reservoir drys up and the water simply doesn't exist, or can't be routed there for any sane amount of money...well, then things will get interesting real fast. smirk
Posted by: Richlacal

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/22/10 04:07 PM

When it Stops Snowing in the Rockies,Then there will be a Major Problem,The Rockies feed The Colorado River,Of which feed Las Vegas/Los Angeles/Arizona/etc.
Posted by: Susan

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/22/10 07:03 PM

"When it Stops Snowing in the Rockies,Then there will be a Major Problem,The Rockies feed The Colorado River,Of which feed Las Vegas/Los Angeles/Arizona/etc."

It isn't just the water, it's the delivery system that could be a major issue.

Sue
Posted by: Art_in_FL

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/22/10 11:23 PM

Some time in the future you may be able to ante into a poker game in Las Vegas with water.

There was a movie, a B-grade film, but entertaining enough, "Ice Pirates". The protagonist, trying to obtain something on the black market, gets asked by the supplier, making the move usually applied to money, 'Do you have any water'.

I also liked that people didn't do much of the fighting. They left it to the robots. Who went at the other sides robots with an axe.

Who knows what Las Vegas might do if water got tight? Probably something grand and over-the-top. Perhaps a huge dome over the city to catch evaporated water. Maybe a huge water-from-air system run by a nuclear plant or a huge solar bank. They do have a lot of room for solar collectors.

Perhaps, poetic in its extraction of utility from discards, like Las Vegas itself blooming in the barren desert, It might sell itself for high-level nuclear waste storage and then use the waste heat created to run a desalination or water-from-air plant.
Posted by: Susan

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/23/10 08:21 AM

"It might sell itself for high-level nuclear waste storage..."

100 miles north of Vegas, they already do store nuclear waste, it's called Yucca Mountain. It's delivered from all over the country, from the states that think nuclear reactors are great, but don't want the waste in their own backyard (sneer).
http://www.yuccamountain.org/

There used to be a joke in LV about how they could merge the components of Yucca Mountain and Las Vegas, with everything glowing without the use of neon lights. And maybe the people, too.

Sue
Posted by: Art_in_FL

Re: Cities Running Out of Water - 11/24/10 02:56 AM

Originally Posted By: Susan
100 miles north of Vegas, they already do store nuclear waste, it's called Yucca Mountain. It's delivered from all over the country, from the states that think nuclear reactors are great, but don't want the waste in their own backyard (sneer).
http://www.yuccamountain.org/


The idea was that Yucca Mountain would be the main US storage facility. That it would allow the closure of several thousand smaller storage sites. Didn't work out that way.

As far as I can tell the only nuclear waste present is the stuff they used for proof-of-concept engineering studies. The US spent many millions testing, engineering, and building the site and it looks like it will never be used as intended.