Big dogs / little fence

I've been trying to shed some weight by talking walks around my neighborhood, and about half the houses have dogs in them. The vast majority are either sociable, well contained, or too small to do more than slight damage to my ankles. There are a few houses that put multiple large aggressive dogs (e.g. Dobermans, Rottweilers, and German Sheppards) in the front yards with fences that barely clear my waist. These wouldn't be too bad if they didn't go ape**** every time I got within 50 yards of their property on the other side of the street.

I don't trust whatever training or batteries the owner puts in their dogs' collars, and I'm looking for an effective countermeasure for when Killer realizes there's nothing keeping him from me.

This is a built up suburban area in SoCal, so guns, baseball bats, boar spears, etc. are all off limits. I'm looking at a can of Halt dog repellant (1.5 oz) or a walking stick like this one


I'm looking for feedback on these ideas, or any other ideas subject to being able to fit it in the pocket of my khakis.

Mark R...a couple of friends gave me a walking stick/staff of laminated wood similar to that found in gunstocks that appears to be very strong similar to your illustration. I am thinking of adding a little more weight to the head. Chris Reeve makes some exquisite (expensive) walking sticks with a titanium end cap(blemished hip replacement ball) Some older gentlemen here in Florida carry golf clubs, with a good "divot" angle like a 9 iron. When I walk I carry a pistol, but usually take a JanSport fannypack water bottle holder with me. I keep a can of wasp spray in the fanny pack... it has a pretty good range with a solid stream....

Dogs going ballistic whenever someone approaches their territory seems to be pretty normal - in fact, I think many dog breeds require pretty intense training NOT to behave this way. From the barking dog's point of view, anybody walking on the sidewalk (straddling their territory) are successfully chasen away by his bold barking. So each time you pass that property you are in fact strengthening and rewarding those dog's bullying behaviour... now THAT is a great joy to consider, isn't it?


With all the barking and scary dogs around - how many stories have you heard about dogs leaving their boundaries to attack someone outside those boundaries? I've heard plenty of stories about dog attacks, but none with that scenario. An actual attack is not likely, but since the consequences are so dire we discuss it anyway, right?



I am not at all competent by dogs, but I feel at liberty to rehash some advice from some dog trainer:


1) Your best bet is in fact to act like a human in charge. Command presence, command voice and simple commands like STOP and the like. You are enacting the I AM HUMAN AND THEREFOR VASTLY SUPERIOR TO YOU - role.

2) Forget running - you can't outrun 'em. Running is for prey, not for commanding humans. Which do you want to be?


3) Augmenting your command voice and presence with a stick (or a beefy pole) is not such a bad idea. Or spray.


4) I don't think a pole would help much against an actual attack, though. Dogs move fast and you probably only have one chance of actually hitting the dog before he has performed his attack (depending on size and built, the attack is probably a combination of slamming you off balance, biting and twisting).


5) Spray is probably pretty effective against an attack, though.


6) Without firearms or spray, you may probably - with instructions and training - have some success defending / deflecting ONE attacking dog. Against a pack of dogs, forget it.


7) Knife? Too close for comfort, I would say - it would require you to let the dog bite you. Maybe with one dog - but a pack? Forget it. You'd probably need something like a 3 foot cavalry sable, and I don't think that is neither legal nor socially acceptable. Even in California.

I'm in California too. Here are some suggestions:

-Concealed handgun...You need a permit.
-Open carry handgun...Check your local laws.
-Pepper spray...Many people like it, but I don't.
-Taser...Will you keep your batteries fresh always?
-Folding knife...Carry a folding knife even if you carry something else.
-Fixed blade...It's bigger, stronger, faster, but you must open carry it.
-Golf iron or putter...You're walking to go practice your swing, or you're taking the club over to a buddy's house.

There are many more weapons of course, but I tried to provide a list of weapons that are legal depending on the local California laws, your permits, etc. Also, these are just weapons. It would be nice to be able to press a button and be magically shielded from the dog, but there's no such thing. You need to train with your weapons.

About the knives, I prefer to carry one rather than not. A good knife may do the trick if a dog locks jaws onto your forearm. A Taser may work too, but you could electrocute yourself if the dog is already attached to you.

I noticed that one or more weapons on your "can't-do" list may be there because they're socially unacceptable. In that case, you might as well not carry anything because some people will always have a problem with you carrying ANY weapon.

As a practical matter, all I can worry about is the law. Nobody has the time, or the obligation, to comply with all the nebulous social norms that vary from house to house.

Sorry you're in SoCal...beautiful weather but the self defense options are...limited.

What are the laws about pepper spray there? I've heard it's quite restrictive. If they don't let you carry some serious pepper (10% oleoresin content vs. 0.5% or 1% in Halt) you *might* consider a Taser device...yup, it's expensive, but works on both humans and canines (like the 10% pepper). Nice thing about Taser is that the civvie model is the same voltage and effectiveness as what the cops carry (except for the aiming device). 50k volts is 50k volts.

Of course, in my case, I'm always going to have one more level of defense in case things *really* go south. But SoCal...darn.

I've heard of quite a few stories, and have handled one case as a personal injury matter. Anyway, what are you calling "outside those boundaries"? A dog doesn't know that the public sidewalk is not the dogs permitted territory. I'm not sure if you know, but Pit Bulls, Rottweilers, etc., are quite common in southern California. Many of them are mistreated and vicious.

Darn, I hate to read posts like this as it really reeks of irresponsible owners in leaving the dogs out next to a public walkway unattended and in a fence probably not suitable for the breeds involved, and with that one always wonders if genetics, training and socialization also were over looked. I have about 40 years worth of experience with Dobermans and they basically were bred as a personal protection dog, thus it probably wouldn’t be a good idea to try to attack me in a serious manner. They tend to be barky when someone comes up to the house but mine always have had a good ability to distinguish between a threat and non-threat, and I should add mine are trained, well socialized and genetically sound dogs. Most all of the working breeds that specialize in protection do tend to be more protective of their home turf, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that a dog is going to come charging over a fence either. If they were prone to want to be over the fence you are describing they probably already would be. If it were me I’d just walk by in a friendly, regular non-threatening manner and ignore them, but I probably read dogs better than some too.

But again, I’m sorry that your going through this as the owners are not stepping up to the plate for either their dogs or the people walking by.

You might contact your local Animal Control and see if they might go by and have a little chat with the owners.

Survival Doesn't know Legal or Illegal!Pack a Piece with Glaser rounds in it.I know alot of the "Paper Shooters" are gonna' give me H,er Hades for this,Like those rounds are so inaccurate,etc.,etc. or you could buy a 2-shot derringer chambered for .410/.45 L.C.,A small can of WD-40 & a Bic lighter can also work.A squirt gun or bottle with Ammonia in it,will work very well!A chat with the local SLO-LEO for your area,& the address of the houses in particular,might or might not get you somewhere but, at least they will know there is a problem there before you take,Extreme measure for your safety!

Please don't advocate breaking the law on this forum.

I carry a pistol wherever it's legal for me to do so. I also train with pistol, both for marksmanship and for dynamic situations. If you carry a handgun, get a permit, get trained, and keep training. Shooting once a year (or even once a week) on a static range without drawing from the holster, reloading, shooting from cover, or moving while shooting could leave you at a significant disadvantage. Accuracy, and accuracy under stress in particular, is far more important than the round you carry.

As far as dogs are concerned, I was at a campground with my family and taking my youngest to the toilet when a large dog got loose and charged us. I'm pleased to say that I was paying attention, saw the threat, and moved between her and the dog while beginning to establish my grip. The dog sheared off to go find something else to do. Nobody saw me reaching for my pistol. To the owner's credit, he recaptured the dog right away and chewed on his son for letting the dog loose.

In retrospect, I don't think the dog intended to harm me or my daughter, but in the second I had to react I feel like I did right. I was ready to do what I had to do but stopped when the threat failed to materialize.

OK, to respond to your responses:

LesSnyder - I looked up pictures of the laminated sticks and they're real artwork. Probably stronger then plain ones.

Mostlyharmless and Rebwa - I did a little search on dog behavior and it looks like territorial agression as opposed to prey or pack protection is what's driving the behavior. I've had one instance were "NO, BAD DOG!!" worked, so it's not reliable.

ireckon - I do carry a folder most of the time, and have had one disasterous experience with pepper spray, which I'll relate shortly. The folder's too short to do me much good beyond the "sacrificial left arm" technique, but I like the reach of a golf club. I like the reach of a 4 1/2 foot walking stick even more...

Richlacal - What you are advocating is both illegal and likely to cause permanant injury to the animals. I prefer to think of myself as a "nice guy", and I'd like the neighbors and police to share that opinion. I just don't want to get bit.

The disasterous and embarrasing pepper spray incident - Well the new can of pepper gel must of has some residue on the outside. When I wiped an eyelash out of my eye you can guess the rest. I spent half an hour with my face submerged in the bathroom sink. On a pain scale of 1 to 10 that was about a 7, but my eye closed tight on it's own. Getting a tattoo is about a 6 for reference.

I've decided to go the route of a hickory or other wood walking stick. I found some advice on using it for fending off attacking dogs (thrust it, don't swing it). Besides, I've been looking for an excuse to get something more elegant then my beatup old Cascade Tracks aluminum stick.

Are the dogs actually acting threatening, or just having fun and making a lot of noise? Does it make a difference whether there is one dog or a group of dogs? Packs can change the whole picture.

If you are talking about those stupid invisible fences, you might drop the owner a registered letter about what's going to happen if their dog blows through it and attacks. Many high-prey-drive dogs will do just that. Afterwards, it can't go home because the same warning/jolt that kept him in under normal circumstances is now keeping him out. If it is truly an aggressive dog, it is now roaming the neighborhood. Once a dog goes through that fence, the fence is useless.

You could also try a mail carrier's trick: take some dog jerky treats with you and flip one or two to each dog (different directions) each time you go by. They may get to looking forward to seeing you. And it tends to annoy the owners -- HA!

Sue

edit by KC2IXE

Rich - calm down. This is NOT a survialist forum, and your tone in this now edited post went over the line -

OK, I'm sorry to hear that.



I'm not talking about what's permitted. I'm talking about what the dog consider his "prime territory". As opposed to the land that surrounds it. In between is a fence, which constitutes a boundary.


A more hands-on way of illustrating the difference: Walking on the sidewalk (on the opposite side of the street) will earn you loads of barks and a threat display. Try jumping that fence and see what happens.

I think a walking stick would serve the purpose. 95% of the population will not recognise a walking stick as a weapon, while 5% will realize it is a quarter staff, more or less. It has the advantage of reach, adds power to your hit, can be used to keep the animal away from you (bite range), and if you have to, it can kill a dog rather easily.

I had a run in with a neighbor's dog. I got 29 stitches and a really neat scar on my right calf. The dog was buried. Privately the neighbor thanked me, son's dog, but son didn't want it around his young child as it was a biter. No kidding.

Since that day I am vigilant around dogs of any size. I like dogs, I just realize they are not all friendly puppies.

Are you looking/staring at the dogs? That's taken as a challenge by some breeds. I usually keep them in the corner of my but otherwise try to appear as if I'm ignoring them.

"No, bad dog" only works if you're the owner/master. But talking to them in a friendly voice works quite well with some dogs.

I like Susan's suggestion about carrying treats. You could become their best friend.

The walking staff is a good idea, too. Useful against two-legged predators as well as four-legged.

If I were encountering those kinds of dogs on a regular basis I would for sure be carrying my bear spray:

http://www.rei.com/product/623173

I do always carry a smaller canister of pepper spray. It's clipped to my dog's water bottle and poop bag holder. I carry it primarily to protect my dog from off-leash dogs. Have never used it but have pulled it out a couple times to make it clear to the owners that they better get their dogs under control.

http://cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/...&hasJS=true

According to this article in the Los Angeles Times, mail carriers are given instructions on dealing with dogs as well as a canister of pepper spray.
http://articles.latimes.com/2007/aug/23/local/me-pitbull23

OK, point taken, but now you're talking about a scenario that is different than the original post. The original post is talking about a fence that is either insufficient or non-existent.

In every neighborhood I lived in, there is always at least one dog that has a territory that extends at least 100 feet past the property line. Everybody in the neighborhood kind of gets to know the dog. In fact, at my folks' house in northern California, there is a big dog across the street that roams around a few hundred feet outside the property line. There is no fence. The dog clearly thinks that its territory includes my parents' front yard. The dog doesn't know any better. I wouldn't blame anybody for pepper spraying the sucker if the dog suddenly got territorial. It's rather selfish and irresponsible for the owner to think that everybody must become familiar with the dog's behavior, as opposed to the owner keeping the dog inside a suitable fence.

You say a walking stick can kill a dog rather easily, how so?

What kind of dog are you talking about there?

I am often accosted by territorial dogs when biking. I often confuse them dreadfully by saying, very gently - "Nice doggie" when they come charging out.

If that doesn't work, and they become truly aggressive, then it is time to consider the quar -, er, hiking staff.

Susan - The dogs are coming up to the fence, and on some occasions leaning over or placing their paws on the fence and barking their heads off.

Mostlyharmless - I have no intention of getting closer then opposite sidewalk. I'll leave the boundary testing to someone more desirous of a Darwin Award. P.S. The dolphins say "thanks for all the fish"

Russ - I do stare at them. I'll try watching them out of the corner of my eye and see if that reduces their reaction.

Dagny - I have carried bear spray on both rural hike for bears and urban hikes for stray or anti-social dogs. There have been a couple of tense moments, but I've never had to use it. The capsaicin content is 1.8%, comparable to the Mace brand 10%OC.

I ran across a piece of equipment called a "bite stick" used by animal control officers. It's a rod or baton you offer the dog instead of your leg. When the dog bites it and pulls, you push the animal around like a recalcitrant mop. But, I haven't been able to find any videos or instructions about the nut's and bolts of using it.

For anybody who knows dog behavior - On the event that I can push the dog around, do I push it toward the yard it escaped from or away and out of it’s territory. Which one will cause it to break off it’s attack first?

This reminds me that I was once attacked by a dog. I worked in the Oregon State Parks and was collecting from campers one evening. I knocked on the door of a motor home and when the owner opened it his Irish Setter came flying out at me.

I carried a clipboard which I held out in defense and he clasped his jaws on it and we danced around the campsite while he bit the clipboard and I undiplomatically instructed his owner to get control of him.

So I think carrying something (in addition to pepper spray) would be wise. Something the dog can clasp onto other than a limb.

Personally I wouldn’t get the stick. I think you’d be better off with the bear spray as a last resort, perhaps a tug dog toy and or some food. Most likely what you are seeing is bored dogs without enough supervision, exercise and probably training looking for something to do. If they are in prey drive which I would guess--then if one did come over the fence most likely he would run off with the tug toy and you could be on your way. In dog’s-- the defense drive is both flight and fight and getting into a fight with a dog who has a high threshold in the fight drive might not be a good idea. Actually most dog bites are from dogs who go into the flight drive or better known as fear bitters and that wouldn't be the case here unless you actually took hold of one or cornered one. I honestly think your seeing bored dogs, fence running in prey drive. Again, no excuse but bad owners!

http://dogequipment.com/products/TUGS-MATERIAL-French_Linen-STITCHED_tug.html

Something like this would be much more effective to let the dog latch onto than a stick in my opinion.

"On the event that I can push the dog around, do I push it toward the yard it escaped from or away and out of it’s territory. Which one will cause it to break off it’s attack first?"

There are probably at least four or five answers, all of which start with 'it depends'. I don't know what the official answer/use of a bite stick is.

Type of dog/type of biting behavior would probably influence how you would react. There are the Pit-types who tend to grab hold and hold on, and I wouldn't be surprised if the bite stick is mainly aimed at these, as there are so many pit breeds around. I could see you guiding (push or pull) a dog like this with the stick.

Other breeds are bite/release, bite/release types of biters. I suspect that most fear-biters are these. An aggressive bite/release type of dog seems to keep trying for a better grip, or just to deliver multiple bites. I can't even imagine a bite stick being of use here.

If you have any stick and can hold the dog off with it, and the owner is running to help, tell him to grab the dog's back legs "like a wheelbarrow" and back off with him. Tell him to keep him moving toward his yard or other enclosure.

You can use this same method if your dog gets into a dog fight IF there is a person for each dog who are willing to do it. (I've seen it used and have used it myself, and it works very well.) It does NOT work when there are two dogs (or more) fighting and you only drag off one of them, because the other dog(s) become the attackers. The really big advantage to this method is avoiding the biting end of the dog. Even your own dog will bite you without determining who he is biting.

I still think making friends (at least to tolerance levels) of dogs you see routinely is the best thing to do.

The wild card is the strange dog -- you don't know if he's just threatening, or if he really means business. If he gets within 15 feet and you've got pepper spray, I would say to use it.

Sue

Fear bitters bite with more of a frontal type snap and actually do the ripping damage. A true fight bite in defence drive, like you would see on a good Schutzhund dog on a sleeve, involves a full grip and hold until told by their handler to release.

One reliable method to read a dog is if the hair is standing up on their back -- you're looking at fear--- not confidence and that would concern me in one of the working protection breeds.

I've seen starter Schutzhund dogs do the bite/release. Yes, trained Schutzhund dogs do hold on, but is it training, is it experience, or is it natural?

IOW, does the dog know what he's doing, or is he making it up as he goes?

That darned dog-human language barrier surely does get in the way!

Sue

It takes training but without genetics no amount of training will get the job done. A calm, confident grip is genetic.

A personal story comes to mind about dogs in drive. . .I was out running one day and part of my run was through a business park. As I was running I noticed a shop owner across the street exit his shop with a dog and turn around to lock up. While he had his back turned, his rottweiler spotted me and crossed the street. I came to full stop and started calmly talking to him. Dog came up and sniffed, I scratched him behind the ears and waited for his owner to realize the dog wasn't with him. Guy almost had a heart attack when he saw his "guard dog" across the street with a total stranger. I started running again after the dog crossed the street and was back with his owner. No harm, it was just a dog being sociable.

The method recommended by those I know who train polar dog (sledgedogs) is to use a showel whenever there's a dog fight. It takes several seriously HARD whacks with the flat side of the showel on the top of both skulls to break their fighting frenzy. If you think that's brutal, you should see what these dogs are willing to do to each other...

I'm pretty sure in CA, it's actually legal to carry an exposed pistol, provided the chamber is empty. There's some grass roots movement (San Diego?) around that's been doing that for a while. People still tend to crap their pants when they see it, but, well, California is a bit naive in some things.
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2007.pdf (look at page 28, the last line).
http://www.californiaopencarry.org/CaliforniaOpenCarry.pdf

I also don't really advocate a stick. But... if you're going to have one... A) cattle prod (imagine the suprise of the dog when he bites onto a live current), or B) one of those sword-in-a-stick are options to consider. I don't know the legality of either of those, however.

You could also have a nice figurehead or something on the head of your walking stick and make it a bit more weighted/pointy. Or, heck, just carve the end to a point. I'm pretty sure most folks would barely glance at a walking stick, much less notice if one end was a bit pointy. And a LEO would have an interesting time explaining it as weapon when, if need be, you could flip it upside down and rub that point down pretty quick.

Actually, the pistol has to be TOTALLY unloaded - No rounds in it at all - doesn't mean you can't carry rounds on you, but

I have a few thoughts about this.

Consider walking with a dog yourself. Once you do that, most dogs will never even see you. They will always focus on the dog you're with.

When walking my two dogs (both around 60 pounds), I have been charged and approached by lots of dogs including a few that have burst through gates. Mostly, these end in a sniff-off and/or an eventual retreat by the charging dog. The exceptions have always been very small dogs which more than once have run up and snapped at my dogs and then run-away. (One dark night, a very silent Yorky actually ran right past me -- at speed -- bit one of my dogs and kept on going right under the legs of my other dog before any of us knew what happened).

Some of the suggestions made above certainly work: Calmly and assertively telling the dog 'no' and sending it back to its yard has worked for me. I've also seen dogs (not mine) hit by the repellent that letter carriers use and it's pretty effective.

Yeah, I know. I'm not going to say much on the wisdom of that logic, however.

No logic or wisdom, that's just the way the law is written. Empty gun on one side, full magazine on the other. 5 seconds maybe. . . maybe less -- still 5 seconds you may not have. But not for dogs. Dogs you just talk to unless they're totally bent.

Open carry requires that the weapon is completely unloaded. You can carry the ammunition on your person, but not in the gun. There's a political movement (AB1934) to do away with this after a couple of idiots decided to open carry black rifles at political rallies. Either way, it's socially taboo and compounded by the fact that I'm don't particularly like guns. Longbows and traditional recurves are more my speed.

Sword canes are expressly prohibited under California law. There's a couple of densely worded paragraphs basicly stating that any knife has to look like a knife. Also batons, saps (included weighted monkeyfist knots), shuriken, and general havoc-causing-what-not are off limits.

Getting back to a tangent on the original subject. Since I don't want to drop $40 on a potential chew toy, what's a good reference for finishing up my own hardwood walking stick?

For urban self-defense, you prefer a long bow or traditional curve?
I have the most awesome mental image I've had in a long time. Thank you.

=====

With the recent pro-gun opinions at the Supreme Court, I'm looking forward to Californians getting their act together with respect to gun rights. My dream is for California to have "shall issue" concealed carry permits. For now, I have a huge grin every time I see law abiding citizens exercising their right to open carry. Open carry is an expression of freedom and a reminder of what is sane.

For general shooting I prefer traditional archery, though I would not want to be on the receiving end of one of my arrows . It's tremendous fun, and I can make and maintain most of my own equipment.

I agree with MDinana above. A cattle prod may do the trick. However, I have NOT checked the California laws for walking around with one.

http://www.enasco.com/product/C13638N
http://www.jefferslivestock.com/ssc/prod...p;sort=&r=1

pepper spray has been proven ineffective against some particularly aggressive and committed breeds.


sticks require a high degree of accuracy and strength...a 'bop' on the noggin just ain't gonna cut it.
can't carry a gun.

'Tasers' are one shot deals. Drive stun and or the non-projectile models require up close and personal utilization (if they work at all) and in that case, lethal force is warranted.


hypovolemic shock will stop anything...carry a knife discreetly, yet easily accesible. a 'waved' folder, or even an open folder secured in a sheath, if not a fixed blade...stab for effect.


if you're gonna tango with an angry dog, you're gonna get bit...accept that and proceed with violence of action.

In my SoCal neighborhood, there is a mandatory leash law. Nevertheless, people here often walk their dogs without a leash, and out of their control. They become indignant and rude if you politely remind them there is a leash law, even if their dog has just lunged for your thigh.

For some reason, my wife is an absolute magnet for aggressive dogs. (Same with mosquitos. There are only two mosquitos in SoCal. One is biting her now, and the other is on its way to bite her.)

My wife is an artist, and looks for interesting junk all the time. She's particularly fond of old broomsticks and mop handles, and often retrieves them from trash bins on the curb. One of the items she retrieved is an aluminum mop handle which on one end has the rusty, jagged, sharp and broken-off remains of what used to hold the mop fixture. She has painted some nice flowers on the shaft, little bunnies, some peace symbols, an American flag, and stuck a Mickey Mouse figure on the top. All a very nice SoCal flavor, and people often remark about her cute walking stick. They rarely notice the rusty sharp jagged end, but she finds it very comforting when greeting the neighbors' little pets now on her walks.

This is comforting to me, also. I still have teeth marks on my arm from a bite by a neighbor lady's large brittany spaniel more than 35 years ago. She was walking the dog down the street, and he was cheerily carrying a stick in his mouth like he wanted to play fetch. We stopped to have a friendly word with this lady, and without warning the dog dropped the stick, and lunged toward my face. I threw up my left arm, and he bit through my shirt into my left bicep. For his trouble, he spent several days penned up so the county health department could see if he had rabies. During this time, he was presumably well fed and watered. I spent most of the next week in pain, but my wife also made sure I was well-fed and watered.

I would be quite interested in reading any backup for this statement.

well, beyond my personal experiences with being sprayed (and it not deterring me) and spraying others (and it not deterring them), here are some sites for your perusal:

- http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080626225520AAlKL5t

"Why doesnt pepper spray work on Pit Bulls?Is mace the same thing? Wow! And I cary mace with me everywhee. here's the news from San Diego.
UNION-TRIBUNE

June 26, 2008
ESCONDIDO: One of two pit bulls that attacked a woman's dog and couldn't be subdued was shot and killed Tuesday by an Escondido police officer.

Neighbors saw the dog being attacked and initially fended off the pit bulls with shovels, Escondido Lt. David Mankin said.

An animal control officer tried to catch the pit bulls, but the dogs approached the officer aggressively, said Abigail Rowland, development director of the Escondido Humane Society.

When a police officer arrived, the pit bulls began circling, Mankin said. The animal control officer used pepper spray, but it was ineffective. When one of the dogs ran toward the police officer, Mankin said, the officer shot it twice.

The dog that was attacked was expected to survive, Rowland said.

Authorities captured the second pit bull. The owner of the dogs, who was...."


"Pepper Spray Works, But Don't Bet Your Life On It
Article #1245"http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF12/1245.html (bears, but the physiological responses can be equated)

Lastly, consider this: while a spontaneous, opportunistic attack by a 'friendly' breed could be deterred by the application of OC, a predatory - or as Cesar Milan has quiped - a 'Red Zone' - dog may not be as willing to go along with your plans. There are no hard and fast rules...the effectiveness of it on committed, human, attackers is debatable (again, personal experience, YMMV).

Also, one must take into account the ability to recognize the attack (from an animal that - if relying on its predatory instincts - will not give you advance warning) and physically manipulate the OC in a way that 1. it hits it's intended target and 2. doesn't inadvertadly handicap you.

am i saying pepper spray is useless? absolutely not...if given the best of circustances, it could very well prevent serious injury to you and the dog...but, when it comes to being thrashed by a maniacal hound, well this is neither horseshoes nor handgrenades...i'll go with lethal force - pepper spray if they're lucky and i have time.

IMHO, there are pepper sprays, and then there are PEPPER SPRAYS. I had the misfortune of getting a little teeny bit of the stuff on my hands one time in the course of changing out the canister on my ASP Key Defender. I had screwed the end cap on slightly askew and accidentally released a small amount of spray onto my left hand. I wiped off what I could and replaced the canister with a completely fresh one. Sometime later I had occasion to rub my left eye. Holy MOG, I was immediately extremely sorry I had done this. In the course of trying to undo what I'd done over the bathroom sink, I discovered that the oily capseicin (sp?) material spreads worse than an oil slick. It made it's way onto the faucets and sink basin (much to the dismay of my wife who ran some water in the basin later and washed her face), and onto the towel I dried off with (again much to the dismay of my wife who tried to use the towel to remove the burning water from her face and eyes). All I can tell you is, if I try to bite you and you spray me with ASP PEPPER SPRAY, I'm gonna change my mind about biting you immediately.

Reminds me of a situation I heard about.

A man was walking down the sidewalk and saw another man and a large dog approaching. He stopped and greeted the man and said "does your dog bite?" The other guy says "No". The first guy reaches to pet the dog and was immediatley bitten. He says "I thought you said your dog doesn't bite" The seocnd man says "That's not my dog".

Peter Sellers and the hotel clerk in one of the Pink Panther movies. I love those movies. "Zat eez NOT my dawg!" ha ha

haha, an instructor was recounting an interesting story about how a lot of his students from a particular class were having a hard time decontaminating and were being diagnosed with corneal abrasions after taking his class...he couldn't figure it out. they were being sprayed, deconing in a large above-ground pool and then standing in front of an industrial fan. turns out the OC was forming a nice 'slick' on top of the water, so everytime they dunked, they got a new layer of it on their skin...the eye issues were from the dust in the air hitting their eyes over and over...hah.

OC isn't bad...it's the shower you take that night. as hard as you try, you can't get it all off - you think it's gone, but it's not...it's hibernating. when you get home, and hop in the shower, all of the residue left in your hairline goes right down the front; eyes, chest, stomach....yeaaaaaa.

as far as accidental exposure; well, i had an old can i used to carry in my jeans pockets...i'm pretty rambunctious at times, so it had developed a few dents, but nothing noteworthy or requiring disposal...well, jeans (as we all know) are good for multiple uses between washing...one day (day 7 without a wash!) i decided to go commando. i was in Fells Point in Baltimore and i did one of those 'scratch oneself through the pocket' moves...maybe 30 seconds later, i realized the seemingly apocolyptic error of my ways as certain nether-regions were burning like all get out. unfortunately, the only public bathroom in Fells Point happened to be at the Subway 3 blocks away...fortunately, this public bathroom has a sink that can support the weight and flailings of a 25 year old man - as i was straddling the sink, half naked, trying to reconcile myself to the fact that i will probably never be able to bear children.

^LOL^ I couldnt imagine, Once, I pulled the front of my thigh, and put Muscle Rub on it and I got an unexpected "fire" I feel so sorry for you!

Here we have an example of why I don't use pepper spray or PEPPER SPRAY. It's too indiscriminate for my, uh, taste.

Ouch... The hard part is getting your significant other to believe that story.

Hi,

I haven't read through all the responses so forgive me for any redunancies. I would opt also for the hiking stick or even a regular escrima stick.

I live in NY, where pretty much anything is illegal, but many people jog, walk and walk their own dogs carrying a similar bludgeon. And we're not in a rough area, either. It's just an accepted sign of the times, I guess.

A few things I wanted to add that may help you with dog confrontations:

1) If a dog is loose, do not RUN away from it. Rather make your departure at an oblique angle, facing the dog, but not staring at it. In the dog world, this body language indicates you do not want to fight but will defend if provoked.

2) Do not stare them in the eyes but rather at the ground in front of them. Rely on your peripheral vision to see what you're doing but don't directly stare.

3) Keep your mouth closed or, at least, do not show your teeth. Some dogs take this as aggression.

4) If a dog attacks, make sure to protect your neck as they will often go for face bites as they associate your teeth as your primary weapon.

5) If a dog is barking at you but is behind a fence (even a smallish, puny one), continue walking as you were. Many times, they are just protecting their territory and are putting on a show. If you keep walking and act unperturbed, they usually will stop once you're out of their range.

I'm a dog fan but acknowledge the dangers of aggressive, unsocialized and loose dogs. Your vigilance is your best asset.

Best wishes.

Do you have the articles or citations for that proof?




I agree with much of the above, except I have a question on the hypovolemic shock...are you thinking a Cali-legal knife (2.5 inches or less!) is enough to cause the hypovolemic shock? Are you going to try for the carotid, or what? A taser gives you one shot, yes, but I'd want at least that one shot before going to the 2.5 inch knife.

Mark, our dog trainer recommends this http://www.absaustralia.com/animalcontrol/animal-control-direct-stop.html

The website says;
Direct Stop Animal Deterrent Spray was developed specifically for Use in controlling aggressive animals.

It is safe for humans and pets, while providing a strong deterrent for the animal. The Direct Stop formula contains a citronella grass. The propellant used in Direct Stop is safe for humans, animals and the environment (ozone friendly).

How Direct Stop Works: The strong force of the spray combined with the Citronella odour distracts the animal from the object of its aggression providing valuable additional seconds to help enable the user to retreat to a safe place.

This method of distracting the animal avoids the potential of bringing out more aggression, as may be the case with some animals that have been sprayed with pepper spray.

CAUTION:
Although Direct Stop has been shown to be as effective as 10% Pepper Spray in dogs, it may not stop trained attack animals or those with a strong motivation to attack.



Our dog trainer always carries this spray when in class or out with her own dogs.

I doubt these dogs will jump the fence to attack, these sorts of attacks are rare but do happen. If you enter its territory an attack is very likely, but for a dog to jump a fence to attack you they have to be very aggressive. In all likelyhood they are just bored, and / or scared. If you are really worried about the dogs, report them to the authorities - you have the right to walk down the street without being intimidated by someone's dogs.

Don't eyeball the dogs - direct eye contact is dog body language for a challenge and / or downright aggressive. I wouldn't try and feed them - walking up to them even with food could upset them. Just walk on by on the other side of the road and leave them well alone.

If they do jump the fence to attack you, the bad news is that in all probability they are highly motivated to cause you damage. The spray / stick might well not be enough, but use them. Don't run. Blow your whistle to try and attract attention and help. Aside from that I'm not qualified to give further advise - I will ask our dog trainer next time I see her