Stove Fuel shelf life

I'm moving soon, and will no longer have a fireplace. So I will be getting some kind of camp stove in case of power outages. Primary usage would be for simple cooking (boil water, heat soups, etc.)

I've looked through the threads around here, and am aware that I know NOTHING about what kind I should get, so would appreciate recommendations.

I want:

* A fuel with a VERY long shelf life. It could be years before I use up a single canister/bottle/whatever.

* Something I can safely use indoors. I would probably put it on top of the stove, and open a couple of windows for ventilation.

* Something a complete greenhorn can operate with a minimum of hassle. Yes, I'll practice with it occasionally, so I don't have to figure it out under adverse circumstances, but I don't want something "fussy".

* I live in San Diego County, so I want something appropriate for temperatures from about 40F ("Winter" lows) to the low 100sF (Summer highs).

What do you all suggest I look for?

Others may laugh, but the stove I'd reach for in that situation is my old Coleman single-burner propane stove.

It's hot, quick to light and relight, and so simple that anyone could use it.

The fuel lasts more-or-less forever, as far as I can tell. It's easy to visually inspect the seal to guard against leaks.

I also have an adapter so I could use my 20lb BBQ tanks if I needed to.

As to indoor use: any camp stove is tricky in that situation; carbon monoxide and fuel leaks can ruin your entire day. I prefer to use it in my porch or carport, never blocking emergency exits, and with fire extinguishers at the ready. But I'm a lot more comfortable with the old Coleman than a liquid-fuel stove.

My $0.02.

I would say an alcohol stove of some sort. Make (or buy, of so inclined) an alcohol stove, and pick up some of the HEET brand gas line antifreeze, in the yellow bottle. Its only a couple $$$, burns hot, and stores well for a while. Thats the cheapest, simplest suggestion. If youre cooking for more than one though, you may want to consider canister stoves-I am not sure about the shelf life of them, but I have used canisters several years old, and they worked fine. As long as they arent warped, rusted, or leaking, you SHOULD be ok with those. And, they are a little more convenient for more than 1 person.

Dual burner, compact, easy to store and powerful propane stove - The Coleman 2-Burner Fold 'N Go InstaStart Stove.


http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-2-Burner-Fold-InstaStart-Stove/dp/B000F7T2MU

http://www.coleman.com/coleman/video/video.asp?link=77228

I own alcohol, iso-butane (cartridge),liquid gas, and propane stoves. Each has its niche. For prolonged domestic problems, I plan on a propane stove (big, heavy, green bottle).

You can shop around and get either a two burner or one burner model for around fifty bucks. The two burner will be more versatile- you can brew coffee and fry eggs at the same time. I have basically phased out use of my classic liquid gas Coleman stoves in favor of propane - it is simply much more convenient and dependable. The latest models are compact and relatively lightweight - for a camp stove.

Alcohol and iso-butane are great in applications where weight is critical, but for domestic situations, it is propane all the way.

Use outdoors if at all possible. CO is a real problem with any stove. CO detectors are available and can be installed before hand.

No windscreen and those insta-start gizmos are trash after the first week of use. A bit expensive....

For use in power outages at home, my best recommendation is a coleman type two burner camping propane stove. Coleman Propane Stove

Here's why:

It is fairly universal.
It is straightforward to operate and maintain.
It uses standard propane cylinders; which unused have a fantastic shelf life, are very common, relatively inexpensive, and work with lots of other devices well.
It is a very stable platform to cook on, and will fit on a standard stovetop.
It is suitable for the level of ventilation you plan to provide.

You don't need the most portable stove for home use, so a backpacker style is an unnecessary compromise for a primary use backup. You will get a lot of value for the money you spend, and I can't imagine anything easier to use for the given purpose. You could get a stove-top baking oven for it and increase your cooking options. Camp Oven
You can also get an adapter for cheap that allows you to use the stove with bulk cylinders of propane (20 lb tanks).

I have much the same, except that the unit I bought is a stove top/oven combo, in that the oven is integral. It is powered by a 20 lb cylinder instead of the small portable ones a regular coleman type stove would use. It is also more expensive. Camp Chef Stove-Oven Combo

True, the two-burner style is more stable, especially important if using large, heavy pots (e.g., purifying water in large stock pots). It's probably the best choice for home-only use.

I prefer the one-burner just because it's handy: I won't hesitate to throw it in the back of the car "just in case," and I could schlep it into a base camp for group cooking (not everyone is comfortable with a white gas stove).

If it is for family cooking, I would go with propane. It's simple, the parts are available in most sporting goods stores (Coleman, anyway) and even your kids can see the flames. Kids playing around may not see the alcohol flame, with scary results.

I have the old Primus Grasshopper single-burner propane stove, which hasn't been made for many years, and I love it. The only drawback is that it needs the longer, skinny propane tanks, unless I want to prop the short tanks up on books or wood.

With alcohol stoves, the advantage is the fuel versatility. Denatured alcohol from a paint store, gas line antifreeze, Everclear, etc, things that might be overlooked in a disaster.

Don't worry too much about using propane for cooking indoors -- people have been using natural gas and propane for cooking from those big tanks for years. The gas is scented, so if the tank didn't close and there's no flame, you should smell it.

Sue

But that is not to say propane is problem free. I always like to check connections with soapy water, mostly because it prevents wasting fuel in a well ventilated environment. This check could be real important inside a dwelling. I believe propane is heavier than air, so keep the candle out of the basement. Pilot lights could be a potential problem.

NFPA reports something like 1300 propane caused fires in homes annually, mostly due to misuse of grills. Actually, not too bad percentage-wise, as long as you are not among the 1300.

Propane Stove.

And if you want to keep it simple get a propane bbq with a burner on it, or even two burners THen you have it hooked up all the time ready to go.

A single burner coleman propane stove is fine to use in the house. My entire stove is and oven is propane, and we've had almost all going at once too.

Nothing is problem-free. I hear that there are some real dummies out there who said winning the lottery was the worst thing that has ever happened to them. (Of course, you know it wasn't the lottery money that caused the problems...)

Be careful and use some sense with everything, matches, shovels, propane stoves, bathing cats...

Sue

Agree. Get something like a Coleman one or two burner stove that burns propane. They can run on the 16.4 oz Coleman propane bottles or you can get an adaptor hose and connect to a 20# refillable bottle.

I think the small bottles propane units are fine for power outage home use. White gas, isopropane, hexamine and alcohol all have a place. But for a simple and reliable home kit it is hard to go wrong with a stock of one pound bottles and a dead simple single-burner Coleman propane stove that sells for $16. A child, with minimum training, could handle refueling and operation.

A single burner stove, $16; single-mantle lantern, $17 ;small catalytic heater, $70; and a dozen one pound bottles of propane amounts to a nice home kit that covers all the bases.

I like the small bottles and a single burner stove precisely because it reinforces the idea that this is an emergency and you need to act accordingly. Make things too convenient and comfortable and people will naturally tend to be more profligate in resource use. One of the reasons I'm against large automatic transfer generators is that they allow a 'business as usual' attitude when strict rationing would be wiser.

The hose and fittings to adapt small propane units to bulk bottles are okay, and they add adaptability, but they don't work on the most compact units because the one-pound bottle is part of their structure and IMO a twenty pound tank is more of a risk and far less easily handled by smaller, weaker people than the smaller bottles.

There are fittings that allow you to refill the one-pound bottles from a bulk tank but using them can violate several seldom enforced laws and can be a slightly risky process. People go that way and have few problems but they are on their own.

Good point about the single burner, normally supported by the tank. This is not an insurmountable problem. I always planned to support the burner, which is very sturdy, with two cinder blocks (or anything else non-flammable). Or any other suitable structure; not hard to improvise; just make sure there is adequate cooling and ventilation below, and no weight on the hose.

The nice thing about the adapter+20lb tank is that, provided the hose is long enough, you can leave the stove indoors and the "big bomb" outside. That strikes me as an excellent plan.

Regardless of method, I'm sure we all agree that a camp stove used indoors should be a used-under-direct-supervision stove. Always.

This is what I'm thinking would work well with a 20# propane bottle.

Coleman Propane Powerpack Perfectflow Stove

I've seen those as well. Looked good, but nearly the same cost as a 2-burner. What's the logic of that? I don't get it.

Regarding the use of an external bulk tank:

When I tried this with a cheapo Yanes two-burner, using the regulator/adapter I have, I found that it burned way too hot. This was with a 5-lb refillable tank. The pot supports were glowing bright orange. I damped down the tank valve by roughly 50% and the burner valves by a third.

The Colemans can probably take a bit more. But be aware that a bulk tank can supply a lot more pressure than a 1-lb tank and adjust accordingly.

IIRC the Coleman PerfectFlow stoves have a pressure regulator so the higher pressure tank should not be an issue.

As for cost, I haven't seen a dual burner Coleman PerfectFlow at $34 USD. That's ~1/2 the price of dual burners in that line and it looks fairly simple (that's a good thing).

Don't know for sure though, all I have here backpacking stoves from MSR and Optimus. I like the looks of this propane set-up for home use though (what I've seen online).

I'm moving into an 18-unit apartment complex. Everything's electric, so I will no longer have a gas stove I can use if the power is out (as long the gas is still on). I was hoping for something I could use safely indoors.

I'm VERY paranoid about CO poisoning. I've experienced mild poisoning on a couple of occasions (headache level), and a family member committed suicide by CO.

If I open the kitchen window and another window, would that be sufficient? What if I add a small battery operated fan exhausting from the kitchen?

PS: excellent information, all around! Thank you!

The amount of CO generated by gas stoves during the cooking process is negligible, otherwise most homes equipped with natural gas cook stoves would require some form of ventilation near the source, which they don't. This is not to say you can leave all burners running full tilt 24/7, but people have been using gas to cook with in homes for a long time. Opening the kitchen window alone would be more than sufficient to allow exhaust gases to vent while cooking. A fan would be overkill. A fuel leak would be a bigger concern, and as noted by others, is easy to avoid/mitigate.

I, too, have bad personal experiences with CO poisoning that make me a bit wary. A cabin full of fellow workers nearly died due to a malfunctioning pilot light. One woke up in the middle of the night with a splitting headache, realized the situation, and ventilated in time. Exceptional circumstances - a small, tightly sealed cabin - which are not representative of most homes.

I myself acquired a splitting headache after excavating an a closed space (which I thought was adequately ventilated) using a carbide lamp for ventilation.

If concerned, a CO detector (properly installed and maintained) provides an extra layer of safety.

Thanks for the info. These single burners look good at $34 USD. I need to check again -- maybe prices have dropped, or maybe it's a pricing quirk up here (last time I checked locally, they wanted over $50 CAD).

I purchased an alcohol stove though Ebay a number of years ago, which I think, would be great for a home situation. The problem is I don’t have the stove handy to look up any information and a search turned up the standard alcohol stoves already mentioned. The stove is made of stainless steel has a removable tank that attaches to the side (works with gravity) and holds around 1 pint of fuel. The stove itself has 1 burner and is adjustable. I believe this was manufactured and is in use in Asian countries. We have used the stove during power outages and it works great. If anyone has any idea what I am talking about and can point to an image that can be posted (there are none on Ebay right now), it might be something that would be useful.

Pete

Sounds like a marine stove of some sort. They are common in that environment, especially for safety reasons (lighter than air and won't pool in the bilges and go boom).

Possibly, but the construction would seem to me to make too unstable for a marine environment, as the fuel bottle might it unstable.

Pete

Okay, it sounds like a propane camp stove is what I want. I'll probably go with one of the two-burner ones for the low profile, stability, and the familiar cooktop.

I appreciate the info about the CO levels, it's reassuring.

And I will be putting in a combo smoke/CO detector anyway, so that's covered, too.


Thank you all, very much!

Compugeek, WallieWorld in Poway has the two burner Coleman stoves on the shelf. I'm rethinking and considering a two burner instead of the single. Seems to be more common and that means better parts availability.

A malfunctioning pilot light would not create a CO problem. More likely it would allow the room to fill with whatever combustible gas the cabin heater would be using. Since it was probably under thermostat control, as the temp in the cabin dropped, the t'stat would've opened the valve to feed the heater, but with no pilot light, the gas would've just kept coming. A CO monitor/alarm would've done you absolutely no good in that case.

CO is a by-product of combustion, and without it, you get no CO build-up. Sounds like what you got was either a propane or a methane (natural gas) flood in your cabin, which came really close to suffocating you all. You would need a low O2 alarm to protect you from that sort of problem. Had any of you lit a match at the time, you probably would've blown the cabin up.

I am a bit hazy on the details - I wasn't there. But it did involve incomplete combustion (that was the malfunction) of a pilot light. No explosive atmosphere was involved. Individual who woke up did so with a serious headache.

One of these might be useful - A Foker Double Gas Boiling Ring with Flame Failure Device (FFD)

http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalog/Double_Burner_Europa_Gas_Boiling_Ring_with_FFD.html

It can be used with a whole host of external Gas Bottles (Butane Propane or LPG) from the Campingaz 901,904 bottles etc through to industrial propane bottles using the appropriate Regulator/Hose and Clips etc i.e most of the bottles supplied by Calorgas such as the Butane 15kg bottles and smaller Patiogas bottles.

A single 15Kg Calor Gas Butane Bottle would give about 25 hrs continuous use at the full 8KW output. Or to put it another way around 15-20 weeks normal cooking use for 1 to 2 persons.

Just want to emphasize this point: CO and CO2 are very different animals. CO2 is totally harmless. CO is highly poisonos. A good combustion gives you loads of CO2 and very little CO. Incomplete combustion will give you a lot more CO.

Now the wicked part of this is: If you "burn up" too much of the oxygen, the combustion will take revenge by spewing out lots of CO. Both lack of oxygen and abundance of CO is deadly. There doesn't have to be anything wrong with the pilot flame at all, just insufficient ventilation...

[/quote] There doesn't have to be anything wrong with the pilot flame at all, just insufficient ventilation... [/quote]

Ventilation may well have been the basic problem. The cabin was very tight - it began life as a shipping container.

The coleman dual burner propane stove is probably the one stove everyone should have, it's almost like an icon in the camping world. But if you only plan on using it as an emergency stove indoors, and not as a normal camping stove, here's another option to consider

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BVC...G5Y327HZYZ9VVG3

You can find these stoves in a lot of the asian supermarkets as they're used for tabletop cooking. They're cheap and easy to use, you can go from opening the box to cooking in under 10 seconds. Just load the canister, flip a switch and turn the dial it's ready to start cooking. It self ignites so you don't even need matches or a lighter. Fuel bottles are less than a buck, and last for a few hours. Big 5 and other sporting goods stores sell the exact same thing, but at somthing like 3x the price.

I will sometimes pick this stove over the dual burner coleman for short camping trips. It's small, light and completely self contained, so if I'm not planning on doing a whole lot of cooking for a lot of people this stove is much easier. The downsides are it doesn't get as hot as propane, and there's no windscreen. You can use the case stood on end as a makeshift windscreen, but indoors it won't even be an issue. As a bonus they make a great second burner during a BBQ, like for boiling water or heating up a frying pan of something.

Butane does have some disadvantages compared to propane (i.e. cold weather and high altitudes), but since you live in San Diego I can't think of a more perfect place for butane. I don't know the exact shelf life of butane, but I've used 20 year old cannisters on another stove with no issue, so I'm guessing it's pretty long.

Question (probably covered somewhere, but I'm a little short on time): can you burn Coleman liquid fuel in a soda can stove?

Sue

Well, just once. Be sure you are wearing eye protection and non-synthetic clothing...
-Blast

Essentially correct. It's the CO that's the major hazard to guard against in situations like this.

But note that CO2, in high concentrations and confined spaces, is also a hazard. This is more of a concern in industrial facilities. That means CO2 is, uh, "mostly" harmless.

Blast: "Well, just once. Be sure you are wearing eye protection and non-synthetic clothing..."

AH! I see! Very descriptive, Blast. Thank you!

(Note to self: Stick to alcohol, dummy!)

Sue

I'd only use one outside. Like anything that burns, it produces carbon monoxide-- a deadly odorless gas. +1 on the fire extinguishers

TRO

We have a gas range, and it will light with a match even if the power is out. Our first backup is the outdoor gas grill. It has a small burner on the side which works well for heating pots. In a SHTF situation we have a trusty old Coleman, and some extra fuel.

I've become a fan of alcohol stoves of late, with a few Trangias and attempts at making my own pop can stove. Recently bought a 'Solo' from http://www.whiteboxstoves.com/

The stoves are very well made and work well, and Bill who makes them is a great guy to deal with.

Alcohol expands easily in heat, so make sure you leave expansion space in whatever you're storing it in.

May I suggest Alcohol. Can be burned indoors with very little ventilation, then look into getting a alcohol stove, very easy to operate and will serve the purposes for which you outlined. may I recommend this site. http://zenstoves.net/. there are a couple of commercial manufactures of alcohol stove on the market, Tania and Virgo coming to mind.
http://www.trangia.se/english/
http://www.vargooutdoors.com/index.html
The fuel can be bought at Home depot,service Stations,paint stores and Wal-Mart to name a few.

I rented a boat once that had an alcohol stove - like the old camp stoves with white gas, the kind you pump up pressure for.

Alcohol is not as hot as gasoline when it burns, so it takes a little longer to bring stuff to a boil, etc.

And the flames are invisible. The invisible part can be a problem if you don't expect to burn your hand when you put it over the burner.

I've been told that alcohol stoves on boats were the preferred stove fuel because neither leaking fuel nor vapor could cause an explosion if ignited.

I don't recall this advantage being mentioned if you intend to store a couple of gallons. It might be the best choice, regardless of other considerations, if your storage facilities do not lend themselves to storing things that could leak and go BOOM at the worst possible time.

The vapor could probably explode and the liquid will definitely burn vigorously. The main advantage of alcohol is that the vapors are lighter than air and will dissipate upward instead of collecting in the bilges of the vessel where they can become a time bomb, a characteristic of nearly all other fuels. Even a very small amount of gasoline can destroy or seriously damage a vessel if it collects in a small space.

I understand the flames will become visible if you add a small amount (10%) of water to the alcohol. I have never tried this.

You can mix superfine popcorn salt (about half a teaspoon per cup) into the alcohol and it will burn orange. Regular table salt doesn't dissolve very well in it.

It seems I heard that you can add borax (Twenty Mule Team borax from the laundry section is 11% borax) for some kind of color, but I don't remember what color, or if there were negative reasons not to do it.

This sounds like Blast's department to me!

Sue

Sue, it turns yellow green!! its pretty cool, heres a link for some fun!! Coloring Fire!!!

Thanks for the links, Al.

Some of those fire colorants look fun, but I don't think want to burn most of those in my kitchen.

Potassium chloride is that no-salt salt for food seasoning. PURPLE!

FINALLY a use for some of those stupid fir cones!

Sue

I agree!! Although i would rather burn those pesky gum balls!!! If only fires were allowed in G.C.!!