Dealing with human waste... starting RIGHT NOW ?

I know that a lot of the scenarios we talk about are just 'what ifs', and many scenarios have varied possibilities. But one we really can't avoid is dealing with human waste.

I don't know if I've got this right, but a neighbor was saying that many modern septic (and sewer?) systems have some kind of electrical pump that moves the waste to the septic tank. So, does that mean that if you don't have power, the toilets back up? Does anyone know about this?

But there are other reasons that our toilets wouldn't work: no power = frozen plumbing, not enough drinking water to use for flushing, etc.

What would you do if suddenly you couldn't use your toilets? I mean starting RIGHT NOW. All the stores are closed, and will stay closed for the next two or three weeks. All the hotels/motels are loaded to capacity with stranded travelers. All your local friends are in the same situation. Travel out of the area is impossible.

What's your plan? And tell us also what kind of living quarters you have: apartment, condo, house/lot, living in your motorhome or travel trailer, etc.

And no cheating! All you have to work with is what you have as of this very minute.

Sue

Hmm, not familiar with any septic tanks needing anything besides gravity. Maybe his system needs to move the waste uphill.

I have one of those foldable camping toilets--the kind where you attach the plastic bags. Got them when my plumbing went out some years ago (I live in an apartment buiding). Also Clorox and a lot of bottled water and selzer. Also have Kirkland 33 gal black bags and 13 gal white bags. Water would be the problem both for "cutting" the waste, and hygiene/drinking. Everytime I load up on large water bottles (Poland Spring 2 gal, etc), they spring a leak. I've been meaning to get a solid water container--seen some at this site. It's just hard living in an apartment.

I'm not sure how I would get rid of it. Can't dump down the sewers. If the toilet starts working again I'd flush it down, but how long would I have to wait to do that?

Me archaeologist. Gottem shovel. Me dig hole. Heap plenty deep, heap plenty straight sides. Wide enough to straddle and long enough. Think of the tomatoes I can grow in a few years!

About thirty rolls of TP in storage. Improvise a seat pretty quick (my ladies will insist on that) and erect privacy screens with blue tarps. Scrounge around for some neutralizing chemicals - I would prefer lime, but might have to do w/ammonia and soil.

I've got my own house with a fenced, private back yard, so I have an easy situation.

I think your neighbor is mistaken. I believe it still rolls downhill.....at least where I live, the sewer system is on a pretty steep grade and everything goes bye-bye nicely (almost always).

I've got a 5 gal bucket (w/foam pipe insulation for the rim), trash bags, and cat litter. Or put trashbags right inside the toilet. For outside you could always dig a cathole and cut the bottom out of the bucket. Individual daily bags are placed in a large contractor grade bag and into the trash bin. That wouldn't work for too long though cause if everyone did it would pile up fast and not everyone would be as careful. Basically after a few days it would be a sanitaiton nightmare.


Or, take hikermor's example, and find a friend with a private backyard.

Wife and daughters use our camping toilet. I get a shovel and the backyard of our house.

-Blast

kitchen garbage bags in the toilet - that's a great idea.
Then we can just toss 'em in the backyard - be frozen solid in a minute...
Summertime presents another problem tho.

No problem.

My plumbing and septic tank use a gravity feed, so as long as I have water I can flush the toilet. The tank would handle minimal use for many days.

But I don't really need it. I have an outhouse out by the woodpile.

With some septic systems electricity is needed to move along the treated water and spray like a sprinkler to empty the last of three tanks. The solids must get pumped out when needed, depending on amount of use. Last year when Hurricane Ike hit us we stopped using the toilets because the elec. was out for days and couldn't empty the cleaned water. Toilet will flush just fine and gravity works to empty into the septic system; the problem is it can't pump the water out and would eventually fill up. So we just played camp out. We live in the woods so DH had a great time marking his territory!

I live in an apartment.
I've stored a 5-gallon bucket with gamma seal lid, Travel John toilet seat that fits onto the lid, and a month's supply of plastic bags, packets of bio-waste-digesting stuff, and toilet paper.
I also have a luggable loo and some extra supplies in case the people who work in the store downstairs are stranded.

One thing we used to do when climbing was take a "poop tube". All it is is a PVC tube, maybe 2" diameter, with threaded ends to screw caps on. To use, you do your "doody" in a bag (we used paper lunch bags, but plastic would do fine-those for pet waste would work well, actually), put a handful of cat litter into it, seal the bag, then put it in the tube. Seal the tube, and viola! Granted, you will have to empty the tube eventually, but it certainly works short term.

My last house had a similar system. It was gravity fed to the septic tank and then pumped to the leach field. It was due to the terrain on my property. Yes, when the electricity goes out you think about it, although the septic tank is relatively large.

Right now, It is construct an outhouse in the backyard until the mushroom cloud dissipates.

Bill

Right now I am at work so I would have to go home first. Boss couldn't stand to pay us for two whole days without working so have to work a partial day today - but he is the boss so what can you do . Have multitudes of 5 gal buckets in the garage that would do until could get an outhouse done in the backyard. Improvise a seat with some kind of cushioning or cut a hole in one of the lids. Don't have much on hand in the way of freshening, maybe some baking soda or a shovel of dirt, might get lucky and have some kitty litter on hand. Most likely dig a hole in the yard and empty it as we go, cover it with a garbage bag and leave it in the garage, or dump it into the storage tank. The last one made me think there might be a longer term strategy of just building the outhouse directly over top of the storage tank. Hmmm. Since no flushing = no water I would want to have a good supply of hand sanitizer on hand as well.
Not trying to criticize or hi-jack as these are great scenarios to think about. However I am, admittedly, probably more like the rest of the population than others on this forum (I am working on that). Unless I had advance warning that services would be disrupted for an extended length of time I would probably be like most people and continue to use the toilet for a few days hoping I could eventually flush it. I do have an advantage of water not being an issue when power goes out (at least as long as the storage tanks hold out) so we can still flush when tank #2 is emptied (don't bother flushing in this situation for tank #1 - before anyone asks this is my eight year olds and my current explanation for pee - empty tank #1 - and poo - empty tank #2). If it became obvious this was going to be an extended outage situation then I would go to plan B (buckets and outhouse if necessary). We also are fortunate to have additional water sources VERY close by - a small stream running along one edge of the property that empties into a small river running along the backside of the property, and not nearly as far away as it sounds (less than 100 feet at the farthest point and much closer at others) so drawing water for a flush, while inconvenient, wouldn't be a problem (see comments below for possible problems with septic system though). Not sure I would want to drink any of it. We could filter it and boil it but there could be other chemical nasties that would still be there. Point being in a situation like this drinking water would likely be more of a concern than the ability to flush. Again not trying to hi-jack, just thought I would mention that. Everyone else behave yourself and stick to the original premise of the thread.
On the need for electricity, there is another concern other than what has already been mentioned. Ours is a small aerator sytem so electricity is required for the little motor that spins an agitator that aerates the storage tank - I think it also starts breaking down solids and prevents them from sinking to the bottom. Not sure how long we could go without it. I believe the rest of the system is basically one tank fills and overflows into the next, eventually leading to a sand filter that is basically a type of leech bed and any excess goes through a chlorinator and then empties into the river I mentioned earlier.
Oh and live in a house with a yard outside city limits.

I'm in a condo, deep in Urban San Diego.

Double bagged trash bag in the back bathroom toilet, twist shut between uses. (That bathroom has a window, which would be open, and the door kept closed. ) Tie it off and take it down to the dumpster as needed. Or put it on the back balcony until I can get rid of them.

Ick!

I see several replies of people saying they would have to improvise a toilet seat. Why? Every home already has at least one. Why not just take off a seat from a toilet in your home and use that?

Back to the topic at hand. I have a 5 gallon bucket and 3 toilet seats (live in a 2.5 bath home so I have 3 toilet seats), trash bags, and kitty litter.

I also have a shovel but I would try to avoid burying waste due to the high water table here, but I would if I had to if the emergency became more long term.

Live in condo w/ dog and girlfriend (hmm, I wonder why that order).

Lots of open space behind our house - catholes if needed. But also have some 5-gal buckets and a ton of the small 33-gal bags. So I could do the ole camping toilet trick.

Worse case scenario, I live about 1 mile from the bay. I could spend lots of time "checking the props." Along with, likely, half a million others (eeewwwwwww).

I'd worry more about it in a short term situation like the Chunnel event a few days ago.

Drive from my house to the lake, fill up buckets, bring them back and use them to flush. Or else put garbage bags in the buckets or toilet. Or trench or outhouse, BTDT.

Librarian, you're right. I left out an important word: 'discharge'. (I had to ask the neighbor again.) That's where the electricity is used, not from the house to the septic tank.

Sue

For those of us living in urban/suburban areas, I wonder how long this method of waste disposal would be tolerable. I can imagine fights easily breaking out over this kind of thing. Judging by how many people already leave dog poop lying around, I wouldn't be surprised if they started throwing bags of refuse in neighbors lawns at night. Without proper pit toilets, (and no porta potties) how long before disease, flies, and stench makes it intolerable?

I must admit, that I am a bit surprised that no one is planning on composting it safely, which is my plan. Five-gallon buckets with clip-on seats/lids, compost pile. Simple. Safe. In all my years of anticipating ETS-type problems, I still haven't found any method better (short- or long-term) than Joseph Jenkins method as outlined in his Humanure Handbook

You have to be careful with in-ground privies in relation to water supplies. Nitrogen from human waste travels downstream via rain to the nearest water source -- not a good thing. Contaminants (and disease) go along with it.

Leaving it lying around in bags will attract rats, raccoons, dogs, etc, and then the bags will be torn apart and it will be sitting there, exposed to rain, flies, etc.

For the short term, if you could store it in a safe place until you could take it to the dump, I guess that would be okay, but technically, you're not even supposed to dispose of full baby diapers in landfills, the last I heard. Again, it follows the water supply... eventually. It just does.

I think more people need to think about this, and make more substantial plans. Survival isn't all canned foods, flashlights and clever gadgets.

Sue

My septic system runs on gravity, completely independent of the utilities. If gravity fails, I have big problems, because my car could then fly right through the roof of my attached garage.

If the water system fails, it would be easier for me to tote water from a nearby stream or other location for flushing than deal with digging holes in my lawn.

To me the big risk of a sewage system is if you have a public system, and it fails and backs up into your house.

Checking on how much volume a person produces, I was reminded of an important fact:

Leave the water in the toilet alone. It seals the trap and prevents sewer gases from getting into the house. (It's also a good idea to pour some water into any unused drains once a month or so for the same reason.) Guess I'm gonna need a bucket.


The average seems to be about a pound a day, with a volume of about a liter, but it can vary widely depending on diet and health.

My outhouse is more-or-less a defacto composter. It's dug into the middle of a stand of mature willow and spruce, and it sits on a shallow trench so I can pull the composted material toward the back with a discarded garden rake.

I add a few leaves or sawdust after each visit, or a bit of fresh wood ash and charcoal, to reduce flies and smell.

I plan to add an old eavestrough in the front to direct the "liquid propulsion" to the shallow roots of the adjacent trees. This is primo fertilizer, and it represents most of the infamous outhouse smell that people recoil from.

And, I plan to add a "solar wall" in the back, with a tall vent pipe, so that gases/odour are directed back and out, instead of up through the hole when you open the lid.

Aside: I should mention that I've been making and experimenting with charcoal. There is no more effective substance for eliminating odour in toilet facilities. I used a five gallon pail filled with firepit charcoal for a week as a urinal (in the interests of science). No smell whatsoever. None.

As others post, virtualy all septic tank systems use gravity to move the waste from the toilet to the septic tank.
Electric power is often but not allways used to move the liquid from the tank to a soakaway or leach field.
This should not matter for a few days but would be a problem in the longer term.
The solids build up in the tank until removed by a tanker truck with a suction pump, again no problem in the short term, but it would be well to consider other options for any long term disaster.

Human waste is a good fertiliser, and if treated properly wont spread disease.
In an emergency, proper treatment is unlikely to be available,therefore I would minimise the risks by only useing human waste to fertilise crops of which we eat only the above ground parts.
Fruit trees, certainly.
Potatoes, no way.

I would fit a large bucket with a toilet seat, and add earth or ashes after each use.
The contents can then be buried near trees etc, or buried deeper and crops planted above.
Neat urine is liable to kill plants, but if well diluted it may be put on the lawn without harm.
In freezing weather, simply store outside until milder weather.

I would grab a shovel and start digging a trench/pit at an appropriate spot out back. I have a few acres, so that shouldn't be an issue.
Then, I would start building a proper Outhouse to cover the hole ... and would likely erect some sort of privacy screen/wall in the interim, depending on how long it took to get the Outhouse put up.
Also, depending on the weather, and the distance of the Out House from the main house... I would let the family use a "toilet bucket". The bucket could likely be used a few times before a trip to the Outhouse to empty it.
I have all of the items on hand to take any of the above steps, if needed.

All the above assumes that I can no longer use the toilets for some reason. In actuality, that would probably not happen here, because our house has a "passive" (no electricity required) septic system. So, as long as I can come up with some water [rain water, pond water, whatever], we can still use and flush the toilets.

I remember reading an article a while back, where some folks had remodeled a basement and added a bathroom. The basement was BELOW the main sewer (or septic) connection that already existed for the house. So, the design had to include a pump (which used electricity) to lift the waste water from the basement bathroom.

http://www.journeytoforever.org/farm_library/specialist.html

The Specialist by Charles Sale

It's a funny, topical, read.

Happens here...we have a pump up system...and a well - detached single family house.

Power goes out, water pump goes out, and septic stops functioning.

Generator takes over running those systems + furnace + lights. We can drop the furnace - we have wood heat as needed.

If it's more than a week, we pee outside and poop in Spackle buckets lined with trash bags.

if the power stays off longer we dig a latrine.

This is an easy one. Defecate in a small portion of the junk mail I get everyday, wrap it up with the appropriate company's address on it, then deposit the little package in the mailbox just down the street from my house. ;-)

We don't need power to get waste to go to the septic.

Some people depending no their location do however. They have a gravity feed to a TINY tank, and from there it pumps to the septic.

We have over 100g of water stored + 40g available for draw down so flushing 1.2 or 1.6 gallons is not that bad... We haven't had to manually dump water in the tank during our recent power outages, we use the water in the pressure tank for the toilet and bottled for drinking.

If the toilet broke, septic filled, etc.. we would dig a hole and use that and then fill, and move on to the next hole. This would be done far far from our well and house. Not really an issue for us, we did this when we were living here temporarily while working on our house. (#2 only, #1 can be done anyplace outside and is, even with a working toilet!!)

I actually forgot about the motor home, we could use that tank if we really wanted to too. Just gravity, and a wee-bit of water.

I have equipped each vehicle with a collapsible toilet and other supporting supplies and the house has a portapotty I keep for the dry hunting camps.

For those folks who live in a urban or suburban area and have lost access to large quantities of water, out in the street you have two sewer systems. One is for storm runoff and the other is for waste. Collect your waste, pull the waste sewer manhole cover and deposit therein. Most manhole covers are stamped "SEWER." Just don't place the waste in the storm runoff sewer. It's a federal offense. You don't want to go to prison for sh_t!

Turbo, that's something I've never thought of (never lived much with sewer systems). Are there any long-term (say, 3 months or so) negative effects to doing something like this? Off the top of my head, I am thinking that without the toilet flushing, the waste will pile up and not move. Right? Wrong?

Sue

Right now?

For my wife and daughter, the a couple of 5 gallon buckets and a large bag of cat litter in my shop.

For me, the back yard..... (except for #2 then I'll use the bucket too...)

"... a couple of 5 gallon buckets and a large bag of cat litter..."

Be ready to do the emptying honors yourself. Even half a bucket of soaking wet clay cat litter is VERY heavy. (Lots of experience with used cat litter here...).

If you might not be home during the problem and the ladies have to handle it themselves, you might want to invest in a bag or two of stove pellets or recycled paper pellet cat litter. They both store well if you don't let them get wet. They're lighter. Even sawdust works just fine.

Sue

Thanks for the info Sue!!

After I responded to your question, I "Stumbled Upon" a saw dust composting toilet...

Very interesting....

A couple of helpful hints:

Avoid mixing urine with feces. Defecate in one spot and urinate in a separate container. Urine can be dumped in a garden or any absorbent soil with few consequences. Excluding urine lowers the weight of the waste by better than half, cuts the smell and makes handling a lot easier because your not dealing with a liquid.

Defecate into an absorbent material and add more of this material over top to control the smell. You can loosely place a top over this but make sure air can get to it. The material can be sawdust, peat moss (my favorite, cheap at any home center and it comes in easily handled compressed blocks), shredded newspaper, or leaves that have been run through a chipper, dried and bagged.

Avoid sealing your solid waste into a bag or container if at all possible. Feces that are suspended in a dry material and expose to air dry out and don't stink. After a day or two they smell more like rich soil. The types of bacteria that flourish in a sealed container, anaerobic, make the most pungent, lingering and nauseating smells imaginable. The term 'gag a maggot' comes to mind.

Don't douse your feces in bleach or formaldehyde (the funky blue chemical toilet stuff) or perfumes. It just makes it smell worse in the long run. Feces and perfume combined has much the same cloying sickly-sweet smell as a rotting body.

Starting with a five gallon bucket and a couple of inches of peat moss in the bottom you can plan on fitting about at least a dozen average deposits with a layer of absorbent material over each.

Have a couple of these setups. When full you should bury the contents. That option exclude by circumstances you can store the container for a few days for the contents to 'mellow' and all excess water to evaporate. Once completely dry, and assuming it is kept dry, it can be bagged and sealed for weeks without it becoming putrid. It should be buried when the opportunity presents itself. When you bury it remove the plastic bags no nature can get to it.

The difficulty of dealing with the human waste would actually be made more difficult at this time of year. Certain human waste is a lot more toxic and difficult to deal with than others depending on the individual. Consider for example the output from a Vegan compared to someone who has consumed a Meal Refusing to Exit (MRE) combined with the consumption of industrially farmed turkey, Brussels sprouts, Guinness and Christmas pudding.

Look what happened to Mr Creosote for example.

Sub zero temperatures may make it difficult to bury waste in the back garden so I reckon the next best thing would be to implement the advice from this old 1970s Protect and Survive video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJGEgTfecHc

Aside:

In planning for any such scenario, where dealing with "effluent in decomposition" may bring the average person to the point of vomiting/paralysis, consider stocking a couple of jars of "Vick's Vaporub," the generic version of which is called something like "medicated chest rub."

Tightly sealed, it will last forever; and when faced with an obscenely disgusting scent, a little under the nostrils will let people power through and get the job done. (Seem to recall there's a CSI angle, please add stories.)

Like when my cat decided to use a portion of the crawl space as a potty box. "What the heck died down there?" And guess who gets to don coveralls and go do cleanup? Yup, that's me. Pass the Vick's, baby, I'm going in.

/Aside.

I don't know if they still use Vicks, but that is exactly what and why it was used in morgues and during autopsies.

I just happened to be hanging around a dog show once, and overheard a woman with a German Shepherd say she put some Vicks on her dog's nose, just in case some fool brought a [censored] in season to the show (very distracting). Then she realized that soon after the Breed competition came his Utility Class... which included scent discrimination...

Sue

Vicks works pretty well to mask, deaden, the sense of smell and really helps to take the edge off the stink.

While it is not considered vital enough to make it in a BOB a decent supply of mentholated vapor rub, Vicks or generic, is a valuable addition to a larger and more comprehensive disaster kit.

Fact is people stink, literally, alive we emit foul vapors and materials. Dead, it only gets worse. And the worse the conditions get and the greater the numbers of people the worse the smell gets.

Mentholated vapor rub is good for calming dry coughs. And helping clear stuffy noses. And dealing with the eye-crossing pong that humans create in life and in death.

Interesting notion. I've smoked stoagies in the past to mask the scent of death, with good effect, but it is an acquired talent; one the uninitiated would not appreciate.

For disposing of human waste without the support of a sewer/septic system, I find the "Platoon" method to be an effective alternative at any time of the year. The notable caveat is a ready supply of fuel, in this case diesel, in which to run the burn barrel. It is the technologically least sophisticated method of rendering human waste inert and essentially unhazardous. If you had a big enough electrical supply handy you could do the same with that, or any other heat source that will quickly and satisfactorily decompose the waste. Rendering waste through heat decomposition has been around for a long time.

There are also chemical alternatives, such as lye and caustic soda, but not as reliable perhaps.

One thing I noticed in my longest non bathing episode - three weeks at altitude in routinely below zero temps - was that I and my companions all ripened together. Somehow, since it was mutual, it was less offensive, just a fact of life. It helped that we were all able to shower within minutes of each other when it was all over.

"I've smoked stoagies in the past to mask the scent of death, with good effect, but it is an acquired talent; one the uninitiated would not appreciate."

The 'uninitiated' use Vicks to mask the scent of those godawful stoagies!

Sue

I hate the smell of Vicks due to the Oklahoma City bombing, and my time spent there...

Cigars do work. The cheaper and more rancid the better.

Save the good ones for after work.

Craig, from downwind, there IS no difference between a good and a bad cigar.

Sue

Shades of the Peacekeeping mission in the Sinai. Set up a pee tube in one area. Squatters will get to go in a tub/basin and carefully empty it. Next to it, the privy, with a 55 gal drum cut in half, top and bottom. Add a cable to the half drum to easily pull it out the back of the privy. He who has been "bad" gets the lovely job of "burning". If you have a supply of kerosene, add a few cups, toss in a flaming piece of toilet paper and move back. Have a long stick for stirring handy. Think happy thoughts while doing so.

Yeah, the neighbors will hate you.

After Susan mentioning that no one thought of composting, I thought I should do a Google search for "florida emergency management human waste", thinking that I should find something quickly. You'll be pleased to know that this discussion is on the top of page 2. I found few if any clear specific instructions on links that were higher in the results!

I'm trying to read the instructions but every single one of them seems to leave out a very important piece of the timeline: where you're urinating or defecating in the instructions! For example, with this PDF:

http://www.orangecountyfl.net/NR/rdonlyr.../AllHazards.pdf

The instructions say:
1. Use 5 gallon buckets lined with heavy-duty plastic garbage bags
2. Add about 1/4 cup of lime or regular unscented liquid chlorine bleach to the bucket as a disinfectant and deodorizer. Keep lids on firmly
3. Keep buckets in a cool dry place
4. DO NOT DISPOSE OF HUMAN WASTE THROUGH YOUR REGULAR TRASH PICKUP! (I understand this one, this is not confusing at all, might want to put "curbside" or "dumpster" in there just to be specific)
5. Clean and disinfect the buckets immediately.

Okay, so I'm confused with these instructions on which steps are for before I defecate/urinate or after. For #1 above, do I need multiple buckets for these instructions? For #2 above, do I put in the disinfectant before before I go? After? both before and after? Does it go in the bag, or in the bucket? or both? When do I replace the bags? Am I keeping bags full of human waste in buckets and then storing with tight lids in a cool dry place, or am I storing the bags in a cool dry place? Or do I store this in a cool dry place while the bag is not yet full? How many 5 gallon buckets will I need if I'm storing full bags in the buckets? When I clean and disinfect the buckets immediately, is this after every time I change a bag (if I'm supposed to), or after the emergency is over?

http://www.pinellascounty.org/EMERGENCY/afterthestorm.htm

This one is not any better. What do I do with the bags????

Where are the instructions for creating a latrine outside? On the first page, they do say for long term emergencies, additional instructions will be given.

K14buc:

Government can't do anything simply, can they? Going by those instructions, everyone would have a whole row of buckets filled with anaerobic, putrifying excrement. What happens if you run out of buckets? If you remove the filled bags so you can reuse the buckets, where do you put the full bags? What do you do if they leak? What do you do about animals? You're not supposed to put it into the landfill, but where ARE you supposed to dispose of it? Where do you store it until then?

Everyone is still thinking in terms of three days. That's not good enough.

Here's the basics on how Joseph Jenkins says to do it, I've done it, and it works just fine.

In a nutshell: You get a new (not sun-brittle) standard 5-gallon plastic bucket, a $12 clip-on toilet seat/lid from a camping store, a pile of sawdust (costs about $8/cubic yard here), and you make a compost pile.

Put a few inches of sawdust (or shredded leaves, stove pellets, wood- or paper-based cat litter box materials, or semi-finished compost) in the bottom of the bucket, clip the seat onto it, and use as intended. There is no separating solids, liquids or toilet paper, it all goes together. Cover all solid waste with a scoop of sawdust (unabsorbed urine goes to the bottom anyway) after each deposit. (NOTE: DO NOT use clay-based cat litter.)

Ladies, check the weight every so often, you may not be able to handle it if it gets too full.

Believe it or not, it doesn't smell, AT ALL. I did it all one winter in my bathroom, and there was less odor than with a flush toilet, which did surprise me.

When the bucket gets kind of full, you take it outdoors, make a dip in the center of your compost pile* with a rake or claw tool, add the contents of the bucket, and cover it with whatever carbon-type material you like: straw, hay, weed trimmings, leaves, soil, etc. You DO NOT spread the waste across the top of the compost pile, ONLY in the center. Clean out the bucket with a toilet brush and a little dishwashing, and toss the cleaning water onto the compost pile, too.

The compost pile should be made fairly well animal-proof for obvious reasons. You can make a simple circle of 2x4" welded wire fencing (3' or 4' high x 4-5' across; or you can make it of wooden pallets; or you could make it of concrete blocks.

It needs to be covered, too, against animals, drenching rains, and drying winds. You can use wire mesh or a pallet, both with a tarp tied across the top, or a partial sheet of plywood anchored with concrete bricks.

A reasonably full bucket can be difficult to lift over a 4-ft barrier, so you may want to plan ahead and put some kind of movable or sectional front on it. Offensive though it may be to some, if there is a man and a woman living together, the woman is going to get stuck dumping the bucket probably 8 out of 10 times, so allow for this, as she isn't likely going to be able to lift a heavy bucket over a 4-ft wall.

As the materials compost, the pile will shrink. It can take a family a year to actually fill the container. You do not turn this compost pile. REPEAT: YOU DO NOT TURN THIS COMPOST PILE! If it takes a year to fill, you let it sit for an additional year to completely break down.

Author Jenkins says he has had his compost tested for pathogens and has used it in his vegetable garden. Your conditions may be different from his, and you probably won't be having any tests done, so it would probably be safest to put the finished compost under trees (fruit trees are okay), fruit shrubs and ornamentals. If push comes to shove for food production in a world gone crazy, mix the totally finished compost into the top 6" of soil, as that's where most of the soil microbes live, and they will finish breaking it down into inoffensive humus, a critical plant nutrient.

Please read the book (it contains drawings and photos), even if you don't do anything about it now. If the time comes when you need it, you'll know what to do. Jenkins answers all the questions you will have, and even some you didn't think of.

Like I've said, I've done this. When I finally opened the compost pile (warily, I'll admit), there was absolutely nothing identifiable in it. NOTHING. It was all just dark brown, mealy compost. There was some dry carbon materials around the edges (mostly straw), so I just set that aside to go in the bottom of the next pile.

The one really big advantage to this method is that the waste components never really touch the ground, as they heat up and are broken down before they get there. This way, unlike an in-ground privy, there are no contaminants or waste nitrogen (the main component in urine) going into the water supply.

Try it, it's easier than you think.

* What I am referring to as your compost pile is not complicated, it's basically just a pile of organic debris: weeds, straw, moldy hay, shredded tree debris, leaves, kitchen waste, etc. Totally all weeds is just fine, and don't need to be shredded or anything, just pile them into the 'container'. It should be at least 18-24" tall when you start adding human waste, as you don't want to put it directly on the ground.

Sue

Square nose shovel. Check
back yard. Check
Kiddy potty for the little girls. Check
Ability to squat Check

The only thing I'm missing is the lumber to make it private.

The garbage can sounds easier. Doubtful that it is illegal since God only knows how many loaded baby diapers are put into garbage cans per day.

"The only thing I'm missing is the lumber to make it private."

Just plant some trees close together.

Sue

Hi, Susan,

I've lived on a farm with a septic tank, and I live in a town with a sewer system. The septic tank requires no power. Your toilet uses the water in the tank to flush the commode, which moves the waste into the septic tank. With a new tank, it sits there till you fill it with water, then each flush pushes the overflow into your drainage field, which is downhill from the septic tank.

In our town, we have occasional power outages, and our toilets flush as usual. The treatment building uses electrical power, but I've never had the power out long enough to see what happens - either the treatment center has backup power or it's far enough downhill it never filled up. :->

Here's where you lose the use of your toilet: no water. I was on St. Barth when the island ran out of water. You have one flush, and then the tank doesn't fill. We used water from our swimming pool to fill the toilet.

I expect the water mains to break in the San Francisco Bay Area when we have our earthquake. We have those strong plastic bags for trash compactors and hobbit chips for people who keep gerbils and such (I think it's pine sawdust). When the toilet is dry, put the plastic bag in the commode and use it for dry waste as much as possible (take a leak outside somewhere). Sprinkle with sawdust (or cat litter) till full or too stinky. Take outside and bury the bag in a shallow grave where it won't be stepped on. Repeat as necessary.

When services come back, ask our garbage company how they want to handle the waste. If they can't, who does? Ask till we get the answer. With the waste buried, it's not a high priority, but we will press till we get a way to dispose of the waste safely.

In areas with high water tables, where a conventional septic system won't work, builders may resort to raised beds and a small lift pump. If power goes out the lift pump fails and things start backing up. It's a septic system without the reassuring reliability of a conventional septic system.

As far as I can tell, living in several cities with different systems, major municipal sewage systems flow by gravity as much as is practical but resort to lift stations as needed. These typically have a significant reserve capacity and where they don't they are supposed to have a fuel supply and generator to run the pumps. How long this is designed to operate independently and how long they actually do remains to be seen. In a recent power outage near me a large lift station with redundant generators failed to activate. Sewage backed up and flowed into a stream. Big EPA/DEP fine.

The good news was that even as the lift station backed up people up hill could flush their toilets as long as they had water.

If your going to bury your plastic bag filled with human waste try to remove, or at least break up, the bag.

If your looking for a company to cart off such waste the people you want to talk to are the same people who pump septic tanks. They are set up and certified to handle such things and properly dispose of it all. But they won't come cheap and as long as there is well drained earth available burial is quick and effective.

Rent an outdoor chemical toilet, i.e. PortaJohn and contract to have it pumped out regularly. Construction sites and major outdoor events use them all the time.

"Rent an outdoor chemical toilet, i.e. PortaJohn and contract to have it pumped out regularly. Construction sites and major outdoor events use them all the time."

Not in a disaster situation, I'll bet, and maybe not soon after, until things settle down to normal.

On hiring a septic tank service after a disaster: get your neighborhood together and have a single large pickup. And from personal experience, they can empty it from buckets and garbage cans, but not from bags.

Sue

> If your going to bury your plastic bag filled with human waste try to remove,
> or at least break up, the bag.

No, it stays in the bag till we find proper disposal. It's a temporary burial, not a long term answer. In my area, well-drained earth is hard to come by that we could bury raw sewage on. Finding a sludge pumper is a good idea. The plastic bags will be a problem for them, be we could see what we could work out if all else fails. Thanks for that suggestion.

Philip, I am obviously missing the point of burying it...

Sue

Sorry, that's my fault. The point of burying it is to get it out of the way so the bag doesn't leak and contaminate your living area with fecal matter.

Buried plastic (thin types like bags) doesn't work very well for containment unless you have a pure-sand, no-rock soil surrounding it. Regular soil with rocks against plastic is a guaranteed puncture if there is any movement against the rocks or if there is any pressure applied from above.

The perfect example of this is that black plastic that was often (too often) used as weed barriers and then covered with wood chips or rocks. The moment the first person stepped on the topping, the plastic was compromised, a hole was formed, and weeds would find it like a spaniel after a bird.

And animals will dig them up. And when you dig them up, you would probably rupture them in the process.

I would suggest that you store a few plastic garbage cans and load the bags (or empty them) into the garbage cans, put the lids on and weight them down very well.

Just my opinion, of which I have many....

Sue

> And animals will dig them up.

Sounds like a good way to trap some dogs for dinner.

Not to mention raccoon ribs and possum belly.

Sue

So, what is the correct procedure for using 5 gallon buckets/toilet bowl, bags, and chlorine to collect and store human waste for a limited time? Say... 2 weeks. I don't have saw dust, or lime.

The simplest thing would be to deposit liquids in one container and solids in another at time of use, to reduce the 'slop effect'. Bundle up the solids in sturdy bags (contractor bags are good) and fasten them with a cable tie (not a twist tie) when when the weight gets to be 'about right'. Don't load up a big bag to capacity -- think about having to empty it.

Forget the chlorine, that's really nothing but 'eyewash' (to make people feel they're doing something). A little chlorine isn't going to decontaminate twenty pounds of feces.

If you have access to water (doesn't have to be drinking quality -- used wash or bath water is fine), dilute the fresh urine about 1:10 and sling it out over your lawn or under your ornamentals, it's good fertilizer as long as it's diluted. The soil microbes should make short work of it, esp in warm weather. Try not to store it, or it turns to ammonia and really stinks. (Try to deposit all toilet paper with the feces, rather than dropping it into the urine.)

Alternatives to raw sawdust is stove pellets, or 'bedding pellets' from a feed store, easily stored in their own tough plastic bags, and pretty cheap ($3.50-$5/bag).

Sue

Once the poop is deposited in a dry absorbent material, I keep most of a block of compressed peat moss from the garden center on hand for just such an eventuality (so I could realistically start right now) and covered with the absorbent it doesn't stink. It dries rapidly and can be stored in that state for some time until you can bury it. Once buried in moist but well drained soil it is rapidly broken down by soil bacteria and effectively composted.

On the other hand you could roll it into balls and make it into decorative items by polish it:
http://scienceblogs.com/grrlscientist/2010/01/polishing_a_turd_to_a_high_glo.php

It is always good to have options.

LOL -- after a few days of boredom, anything is possible. Be sure to stock bright paints, brushes, and varnish.

Yes, peat moss would work very exceptionally well. Sawdust would be okay too. And my experiments with home-made charcoal ("biochar" to the greenies) suggests that this is the item of choice, for the liquids pail at least. And I strongly concur with Sue's comments about separate collection wherever possible.

Bleach has its place also. It won't sterilize the whole solid mass, but an occasional ounce will stop decomp to a huge degree, especially if the container is well covered between uses, making the sit-upon considerably less traumatic to those inclined to freak out. And you know you'll have some of those.

BTW, any good suggestions regarding sources for five-gallon plastic pails? Painters and restaurants come to mind. Thoughts?

Standard five gallon buckets are available on construction sites: paint and drywall mud; restaurants: pickles, coleslaw, and condiments; maintenance and custodial contractors or institutional organizations: detergents, cleaners, waxes, polish. If you have the gift of gab you can talk your way into some for free.

A lot will come for free if your willing to dig them out of a dumpster or remove them rapidly if they agree to stack them up for you. Too often people ask for them to be put aside and then don't follow up so they get tossed just to free up the room. Point being that if your ask and they agree to do you a favor you need to follow through. Basic civility and consideration but it seems to too often get forgotten.

If you need them now, want to avoid banter and negotiation, need them in pristine condition, and are willing to spend some money most hardware outlets sell them. $4 to $6 each seems to be the going price but I have seen them on sale for as little as $2 each.

If you have a few of those buckets you can rotate them as needed. Possibly using them for storage. If space or weight is a concern liner bags might be used. The first time I used peat moss and tried it I didn't use bags and found that there was very little contamination of the bucket. Dumping was quick, easy, and less revolting that I had expected. Bags might be wise with children but I'm beginning to think that they might be more trouble than the are worth if everyone is disciplined and you can dispose of the contents in good time.

Based on my experience and Art_'s as well, I think the bottom line is: if you pay for plastic pails, you've been royally had.

I have about 25 drywall pails, 10 motor/hydraulic oil pails, and half a dozen canola oil pails from a restaurant. Some scrounged from a recycling bin (I'm shameless) but most given to me for the asking. I separate "food grade" from "chemical grade" just to be on the safe side.

I think that a couple of dozen 5-gal pails, with some lids if possible, should be standard for any of us. They solve a whole bunch of practical problems. If you stack them vertically in a garage, their footprint is approx. 2 sq. ft.

Try to acquire buckets from restaurants rather than construction sites, as they are far less likely to have been exposed to a lot of sunlight/UV radiation. Sitting on a partly-full sun-rotted bucket and having it fall apart under you is not something you need under survival conditions (and it would make a big mess on your bathroom carpet).

ki4buc: thinking a little more on your question, I would STRONGLY suggest that you invest in some sawdust, as-is or in pellet form. You may not believe how much it will absorb odor and keep down flies. Otherwise, the alternative would be to fill and close a bunch of small bags and put them into a large bag, and all those bags mean that it would all have to go to the landfill rather than a sewage treatment facility because no one is going to want to empty all those little bags. And if you just let the waste accumulate without bagging or covering it, you're going to have an awful stinky, fly-ridden, maggotty mess.

And if you want to 'invest' in a pickup load of sawdust (not PT), it doesn't have to be stored dry. Just dump it in a corner of your yard or under a tree and let it sit until you need it. If it advances into a state of compost, no problem, you still use it as-is.

Sue

I've seen cat litter suggested to absord moisture and odors. Is any particular brand better or worse for this use?

I used to have a couple of cats, and nothing works regarding absorbing odors. For our uses, any brand of cat litter, peat moss, saw dust, etc. will be equally ineffective for absorbing odors, but about equal for absorbing moisture. I prefer peat moss and saw dust because it's lighter than litter.




Back in the 70s I was in a Sears store in Minot, ND, when the announcement came over the intercom, "Ted Williams to the sporting goods department, please. Ted Williams to sporting goods." I was with a salesman; Sears's baseball stuff was endorsed by Ted Williams, but I was surprised he'd be in Minot, so I asked if he was really there. "No," the guy said, "we've got a new girl on the intercom." Immediately she said, "Pete Moss to the garden supply department, please. Pete Moss to garden supplies."

(This was back when men were men and women were girls; please excuse the salesperson and me for quoting him.)

I knew Pete Moss (really!). He wouldn't take a woman out to dinner unless he had tickets to free meals, and he thought my van and my sister's pickup "weren't very feminine".

NEXT!

Sue

Clay-type cat litter weighs a lot more than pellets or sawdust. Dry, it's heavy; wet, it's a lot heavier. Pellets and sawdust not only work better, but they're lighter and far cheaper, and they will compost. Clay litter practically lasts forever, archeologically speaking.

Sue

Clearly a waste of talent. I hope they had the good sense to promote her immediately. (Uh-huh, I'm sure it worked out that way.)

I saw one reference to using lime, you can also use lye or woodash to mitigate the smell as well as make some attempt to disinfect fecal material. One of the big dangers of longterm failure of a sewage system is the inevitable outbreaks of dysentery and cholera.
For the unitiated, those are more graphically known as terminal diarrhea. It comes from contact with infected fecal material.
I think as soon as practicable, one should consider relocation to a less densely populated area. Humans are terrible disease vectors, especially after an infrastructure breakdown that would limit or eliminate any manner of sanitation as well as reliable drug therapies.
Folks with TB who haven't taken their entire antibiotic regime as well as other folks with untreated infectious diseases, are going to be distributing their infected sputum, feces, and other bodily fluids indescriminately. If you don't have sewer, chances are the water supply is suspect if at all operational. Time to get out of dodge unless you are completely self-contained and quarantined from outside contact.
These are always public health concerns in areas disrupted by war, natural disasters and other infrastructure breakdowns.

"I think as soon as practicable, one should consider relocation to a less densely populated area."

If you thought of it, so will a million others, so you would just be taking the problems with you, but you'd have less 'stuff' with which to deal with it.

Compost it, and tell your neighbors how to compost it. Weeds, leaves, kitchen waste -- put it to good use.

Sue

Susan, I concur.
Once survival in a geographic area becomes untenable, it may be wise to relocate. The trick is to have somewhere to relocate to beforehand and have it adequately stocked with items necessary to sustain life.
It is never prudent to be a refugee. They tend to drop like flies in any adverse conditions. Placing your future and safety in the hands of others and counting on the goodwill of strangers is an unwise act.

We have a bedside commode that we can put a 5 gal bucket under. When it is 'time' to empty it there is a spot in the garden to make a deposit under ground and it will compost.

Actually it comes under public health and epa laws.

Rich